Skeptics and GMO Labeling

So you think higher yields and reduced labor come about with no reduction in costs?

It's magic, I tell you! :cool:
There are ways to produce higher yields at lower cost without GMOs. GMOs are only superior when compared to conventional ag. It's easy to understand why as well. That's what they were designed for. Give me a GMO designed for use in an "organic" type system (yes I know it couldn't be certified), and then MAYBE you can claim a yield benefit. None out there yet though.

Organic has increased costs because it inefficient and unscientific.
Wrong.

Now, if by "everyone" you actually mean everyone, the fact that yog_sothoth has not addressed this doesn't mean that many of us have not raised that issue over and over again. In fact, many of us have.
In that case my apologies.
 
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(much snipped)Americans eat food that would only be used as discount animal feed in most of the world.

I am an animal. I am the sort of animal that has to pay for its food. I would like discount food.

Thank you GMOs.
 
And the reason we don't have more GMOs that are more about taste and nutrition and so on is that the current regulatory environment insures that only mega corporations have the money to jump through all the hoops to bring a GMO to market. The fact that fantastic yummy nutritious GMOS are sitting on shelves developed by the public sector that they cannot afford to bring to market really pisses me off.

There's also the fact that if someone makes a "better tasting" or "extra vitamin" GMO it WILL be subject to mandatory labeling because it wont pass the FDA's equivalence test.
 
Well as long as rich white 1st world yuppies get their soy free organic hemp sprouts who cares that tens of millions of people in the underdeveloped world don't have adequate food supplies or suffer from massive nutritional decencies.
 
:D

[qimg]http://media.mnn.com/sites/default/files/user/130154/non-gmo-rock-salt_1.jpg[/qimg]

:D

Thank you. That has got to be so much better than the sea salt I have been buying to get all those valuable minerals removed from the processed salt I could buy in a box for 99¢. I mean they put the poisonous chemical iodine in that processed stuff. :boggled:
 
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Which of the following things do you disagree with:
GMO labeling is done around the world without apparent problems.
Dunno. Sounds like a mixed bag.

Bsed on international experience, if GMOs are labeled as such the "Ick factor" associated with GMOs will likely result in food being sold to consumers quickly becoming GMO free. When consumers are given the choice, they apparently usually choose GMO-free products.
Based on all the negative hype about GMOs, yes.

Why endeavour to force labelling when that will cause GMO foods to fail? Seems obvious to me: you want them to fail.

The GMO properties being used in the US have no real benefit to the consumer, and are related to obtaining higher yields or reduced labor during farming.
I'll chime in with another WTF?!? too. Yeah, more and cheaper is such a drag!

Looking at grocery prices in countries with GMO labeling, there is no clear end user cost to GMO labeling that can be picked out of the noise of other factors. If GMO labeling does have some costs, they are too small to detect.
Dunno again. Meh. Everything gets a label anyway. Stick a Qr-code on there which goes to wikipedia or summin'. No need to be dramatic.

Americans eat food that would only be used as discount animal feed in most of the world.
In the third world we'd eat the Americans too.

In my opinion, if someone made more GMO products that benefit the consumer, say more things like golden rice that is more nutritious, people would be more accepting of GMOs. If they made GMO low-calorie grain that helps people lose weight that would likely be pretty popular. GMO gluten free wheat that tastes like regular wheat?

Yeah, and if people would let that happen it would start to happen. See the problem?

No, really. See the problem?

As it is, roundup ready and pesticides are not very palatable to most people.
Then stop palating it. Geez. Use syrup on your pancakes. Your doing it rong.

Of course, the few highly specific insect-toxic proteins that are output in some GMOs are not "pesticides" — like a bullet is not a bomb.

I support labeling because if GMOs are so unpopular that people would rather not eat them, they should be labeled to allow people to make this choice if they feel that strongly about it
Yes, I know. You'd like to see GMOs gone. That's clear.
 
Nope.

Also, don't forget to provide the list of Big Ag members.
Let me refresh your memory:
Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories (IBT Labs) was an American industrial product safety testing laboratory. IBT conducted significant quantities of research for pharmaceutical companies, chemical manufacturers and other industrial clients; at its height during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, IBT operated the largest facility of its kind and performed more than one-third of all toxicology testing in the United States. IBT was later suspected of engaging in extensive scientific misconduct, or more properly, fraud, which resulted in the indictment of its president and several top executives in 1981 and convictions in 1983.[1]

The Environmental Protection Agency announced on March 1, 1991 that it was investigating Craven Laboratories for "allegedly falsifying test data used by chemical firms to win EPA approval of pesticides."

Following conclusion of the EPA's investigation, the Department of Justice announced on February 25, 1994 that the president of Craven Laboratories and fourteen of its former employees were adjudged guilty for the falsification of research data.[2]

You can generate your own list. Just remember the definition of "big ag" refers not to the actual size of any individual company, but instead the agricultural business models using excessive mechanization and synthetic chemical inputs. ie "factory farming". It is quite possible to find very small companies involved in those destructive business models, and rather large companies involved in alternative business models less destructive to the environment. The reason it is called "big ag" isn't the size of any single company, but rather because the model taken as a whole is the dominant business model in developed countries.
 
Let me refresh your memory:

Do you not even read what you post? Those 2 examples were about Big Chem(tm), not Big Ag(tm). :rolleyes:

You can generate your own list. Just remember the definition of "big ag" refers not to the actual size of any individual company, but instead the agricultural business models using excessive mechanization and synthetic chemical inputs. ie "factory farming". It is quite possible to find very small companies involved in those destructive business models, and rather large companies involved in alternative business models less destructive to the environment. The reason it is called "big ag" isn't the size of any single company, but rather because the model taken as a whole is the dominant business model in developed countries.

In other words, any company that sells to farmers who live in the 21st century. Got it! :cool:
 
While people claim they have somehow refuted anything I have said, which they have not...
Actually we have refuted stuff you've said....

You claim that food in europe is cheaper. We pointed out (quite correctly) that your "cheaper" food is based on consumer reports, which ignores the fact that European agriculture is more heavily subsidized than U.S. agriculture.

That is probably one of the main reasons you think food is cheaper there.

This has been explained to you multiple times. Rather than acknowledge the fact that you were wrong, you do the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la I can't hear you" whenever your errors are pointed out.

Which of the following things do you disagree with:

GMO labeling is done around the world without apparent problems.
Disagree... because unlike you, we recognize that agricultural subsidies distort the real cost of food, and help hide the fact that food prices are not necessarily cheaper in Europe, and are probably more expensive.

Bsed on international experience, if GMOs are labeled as such the "Ick factor" associated with GMOs will likely result in food being sold to consumers quickly becoming GMO free. When consumers are given the choice, they apparently usually choose GMO-free products.
And if people are given a choice between products containing manure and those not containing manure we go with the poop-free version.

Yet I don't see you suggesting organic produce (which is often fertilized with manure) receive the "May contain manure" label. Why is that?

The GMO properties being used in the US have no real benefit to the consumer, and are related to obtaining higher yields or reduced labor during farming.
Which in turn reduces costs and helps the environment since less land needs to be used for farming.

Looking at grocery prices in countries with GMO labeling, there is no clear end user cost to GMO labeling that can be picked out of the noise of other factors.
Ahhh!!!! The stupidity! It burns!

You know, that whole "agricultural subsidy" thing I mentioned? Where European governments spend much more than the U.S. government to help farmers? Think that might have something to do with the issue of grocery store prices?

Americans eat food that would only be used as discount animal feed in most of the world.
Wait a sec... if GMOs have no cost benefits, why would it be considered "discount" animal feed?

Could it be that GMOs are cheaper? After all, if they weren't cheaper to produce, then farmers would be able to use non-GMO crops for animal feed with no price difference.

As it is, roundup ready and pesticides are not very palatable to most people.
Ummmm.... all produce is produced with the acceptance of pesticides. The difference between 'roundup ready' and conventional crops is the nature of the pesticides used. (Roundup ready crops will probably have less... since its a broad-action chemical.)
 
Ummmm.... all produce is produced with the acceptance of pesticides. The difference between 'roundup ready' and conventional crops is the nature of the pesticides used. (Roundup ready crops will probably have less... since its a broad-action chemical.)
Not mine. I keep a few organic approved insecticides as a just in case back up plan...but don't use them, haven't in a very long time. Absolutely don't even own a herbicide or fungicide, no need for them, they only disrupt the system I am using. I do use various bacteria and fungal inoculates early on. They taper off over time. And I will trap poison shoot or various other techniques to keep the mice rat vole gopher etc... population in check. It's a long term strategy made possible because of the high demand for organic produce.
 
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Not mine. I keep a few organic approved insecticides as a just in case back up plan...but don't use them, haven't in a very long time. Absolutely don't even own a herbicide or fungicide, no need for them, they only disrupt the system I am using. I do use various bacteria and fungal inoculates early on. They taper off over time. And I will trap poison shoot or various other techniques to keep the mice rat vole gopher etc... population in check. It's a long term strategy made possible because of the high demand for organic produce.

Easy to do on a .1 acre "farm". Scale up to 10,000 acres, and let us know how your "system" works out.
 
Easy to do on a .1 acre "farm". Scale up to 10,000 acres, and let us know how your "system" works out.
10,000 acres is too big for local fresh vegetable production. Even if I owned 20,000 acres I wouldn't plant it all in vegetables. Maybe I could rotate through various pastured livestock models. Also requiring no pesticide use. However, the proof of concept is designed to be scaled up to at least a section or two. And I will be happy to let you know when it is done. Right now we are at ~ 2 acres +/-, which is about the limit I can handle myself without hiring help or purchasing better equipment. Next step will probably be ~20 acres with moderate equipment. I'll need to clear that ground of scrub first though.
 
At last (least) you now have a choice:

Chipotle removes all GMO ingredients from its menu

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/27/chipotle-gmo-food-off-the-menu

Chipotle switched from GMO soybean oil to non GMO sunflower oil. The sunflower oil is a herbicide resistant sunflower that was derived from conventional breeding. It is tolerant of the herbicide imazamox. 144 weed species have evolved resistance to imazamox vs, 28 weed species have evolved resistance to glyphosate.

But its non GMO.

Chipotle still sells soda sweetened with high fructose corn syrup which is almost certainly GMO derived.Not that you could ever tell, but hey thats not the point, is it?

And then there is the cheese, is it made from GMO rennet?
 
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