Skepticism can lose friends...

arthwollipot said:
See, this is why I avoid work christmas parties. Like the plague.

Hey, I have to spend a third of my life in the company of these losers. Why would I want to spend my social time with them as well? In my experience, all but one or two people at any given workplace are people I wouldn't want to hang out with.
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To continue the de-rail, you surely understand the reality of office politics wolli. I have in fact found excuses for a couple of Christmas parties, but miss too many and your "teamwork" starts to be questioned.
 
Well I suppose nobody is going to question anything about someone carrying a bloody big axe.:)
 
Im here to study the psychology of skepticism. This is a very interesting thread. There seems to be a problem about being openly sceptical about the views of other people and yet still being able to take part in ordinary social intercourse and considered a nice person.

Is there something about scepticism that is essentially aggressive and destructive? At first glance it seems to be more about educating and leading people to greater clarity of thinking - that is a friendly act surely? I would not want stand by while anyone made a complete fool of themselves, after all. If there was a chance of saving at least one party guest from that , then maybe I would risk the party chat going a bit silent. Party chat is after all essentially superficial, and I for one find small talk a dreadful bore.

Is this the prime motive of scepticism - selflessly saving others from being/appearing/acting:confused: brainless? Or is it simply a narcissistic mind game that requires the skeptic to seem to be the most intelligent person in the room?
 
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Skepticism can be both, or either, or neither, depending on how it is applied. No one side of the issue has the monopoly on arrogance.
 
The hard part is when you have a sexual relationship going with somebody and it dawns on you that they are like 80% woo. What do you do then? (P.S. I married a Skeptic, so you know what I did - I moved on.)
 
arthwollipot said:
See, this is why I avoid work christmas parties. Like the plague.

Hey, I have to spend a third of my life in the company of these losers. Why would I want to spend my social time with them as well? In my experience, all but one or two people at any given workplace are people I wouldn't want to hang out with.
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I agree 100%. Fortunately, when you work third shift people don't expect you to be social.
 
BenBurch said:
The hard part is when you have a sexual relationship going with somebody and it dawns on you that they are like 80% woo. What do you do then?
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Tell them that the Yaqui Indians believed swallowing semen regularly conferred psychic powers on the swallower.
 
It's not so much trying to be the smartest person in the room... it's just not wanting to be propping up a superstition. I had an aunt tell me at a baby shower that putting ribbons around my neck could cause the baby to strangle on it's umbilical cord. Now that's a horrid thought. But my aunt was just trying to warn me... and I didn't say anything because she wasn't going to have more kids... but I was worried about other people listening and taking it seriously... how awful if such a thing happened and a person blamed themselves. I understand how one could make the correlation, but I also understand why it's incorrect. I am very often in situations like that... where not speaking up seems to imply my agreement. And I don't find any woo true or even good to believe. I think it makes for sloppy thinking. I don't want to be a part of it or seem to support it... but I don't like the judgment when I speak up. So, I avoid and beg out of such conversations.

There are too many people like tishayton... no matter what you say in response is going to make them imagine you with horns. What an obnoxious post. And that's the way the woo are... they want to call you arrogant... even on a skeptics forum... they are relentless at a Christmas party... I just get so tired of having to hear other people propping up their own biases, delusions, untruths, and the self-important skeptic flogging like tishayton.

The woo will always see it as a "narcissitic mind game of people trying to be the smartest person in the room" because otherwise they might have to examine their biases, beliefs, or irrationality. Even on our own forum they come to tell us how much humbler they are than us. As if we'd go to such a self important opinion spouter for advice. What exactly made tishayton call people narcissistic. And isn't it more narcissistic to offer holier-than-thou criticism when no one sees you as an expert on any topic--not skepticism, clarity, nor social skills.

Tishayton, if you want people to care about your opinion... you may wish to make more of an effort to care about theirs. You've given us no reason as to what you find narcissistic or why we should think you are less so.

If someone is casting demons out, do you join in not to hurt their feelings? How about if they insist on doing your astrological chart or telling you about how they saw a chupacabra. I think you may be a woo who feels insulted by those who disbelieve in your magic and you'd rather call them names than face your own biases and delusions.
 
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Uhm, I think you're reading too much into tishayton's words. Maybe you're right, but I try to take people I don't know at face value. So far he or she hasn't said anything to justify your judgment.
 
-Fran- said:
But sometimes that is actually the true situation, sometimes you are actually the bearer of truth about a given subject, and sometimes the other person really are ignorant, and just don't want the truth even if it hits him between the eyes.

I see your point, and of course I don't think you should be arrogant about it. But there are quite many things for which different opinions about it are not all of the same value. I can, in fact, know with a great deal of certainty that I am right about some things and that the other person simply is ignorant about certain things. That does not automatically mean in itself that I am arrogant if I point out what I do know, if the subject is brought up. Sure it can be done in an arrogant way, but the way you phrase things here it sounds as if being right, and being sure about that you are right is an arrogant thing in itself. I don't think that it necessarily is so. And you don't always have to be open and respectful to absolutely everything people say; some things they are saying are in fact only nonsense.

(The same goes for the other way around of course. I have been corrected about things I thought I knew many times, and sure it can be embarrassing, but why would I defend it at any price? That would make me look even more stupid. And some people that corrected me, yes I did percieve as a bit arrogant, but others did not seem arrogant in the least to me. They just knew something I didn't and corrected me when I said something wrong. And I realized that I could not hold a position on it, or have a different opinion about it, because I was simply wrong about it, and that's that.)
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Well yes of course this depends on the context. If you know that there are no black bears in Woodsie park and there's this person who insists that there are, then you are technically speaking "carrying that truth" with yourself. I guess that would technically make you a "bearer of that truth". It's the term "Bearer of truth" as a general self-definition that bothers me. But yes I see your point. No, I wasn't precisely claiming that if you're certain that you're right about something, that makes you arrogant automatically. It depends of course on how you approach that information.

And I'm right, ok????:D
 
Yikes, here we go again.

tishayton said:
Is there something about scepticism that is essentially aggressive and destructive?
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I think you might wanna rephrase your question. See, skepticism doesn't destroy. Neither does Religion nor Comunism nor Philosophy. Human beings do.

And not all of them, may I add.

Skepticism is a posture. That there might be people who adopt that posture to justify other low-passion actions, doesn't prove anything against skepticism itself. Humans are responsible for their actions.

tishayton said:
Is this the prime motive of scepticism - selflessly saving others from being/appearing/acting:confused: brainless? Or is it simply a narcissistic mind game that requires the skeptic to seem to be the most intelligent person in the room?
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I get the feeling that that wasn't a question but a statement dressed up as a question.
 
The odd thing is that the woo's know they are right...without any credible evidence.

The sceptic has credible evidence to indicate that they are wrong.

Nobody likes to be told they are wrong when they know they are right.

You are immediately in confrontation when challenging someone that knows they are right.



I've said this before but education should go through several stages:

  1. Knowledge
  2. Understanding
  3. Application
  4. Analysis
  5. Synthesis
  6. Evaluation
Many sceptics jump in at stage 6 and wonder why they get short shrift from most people that do not comprehend stages 1 to 5.

Jumping to stage 6 is often why the sceptic is often considered rude, arrogant and/or condescending.

Play about at stage 1 and 2...that's interesting.



PS - I'm crap at it but know I should. :boxedin:



.
 
H3LL said:
The odd thing is that the woo's know they are right...without any credible evidence.

The sceptic has credible evidence to indicate that they are wrong.

Nobody likes to be told they are wrong when they know they are right.

You are immediately in confrontation when challenging someone that knows they are right.



I've said this before but education should go through several stages:

  1. Knowledge
  2. Understanding
  3. Application
  4. Analysis
  5. Synthesis
  6. Evaluation
Many sceptics jump in at stage 6 and wonder why they get short shrift from most people that do not comprehend stages 1 to 5.

Jumping to stage 6 is often why the sceptic is often considered rude, arrogant and/or condescending.

Play about at stage 1 and 2...that's interesting.



PS - I'm crap at it but know I should. :boxedin:



.
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Yes, very important aspect. The subjetivity of "knowing". People know something until proven wrong. Kinda like in court: you're innocent or guilty until proven the opposite.

And I like your christmass version of your profile pic. :)
 
Whiplash said:
Every time I see someone make fun of the "Why do you hate America" line, I instantly see it as someone who was offended by that attack and feels a deeply rooted need to attack it and ridicule it in order to invalidate it.
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I've never been offended by it, it just seems, in the contexts in which I've seen it asked, to be ridiculous.

There are times it would be a valid question to ask (such as in a conversation with someone who has declared a jihad on America), but when it is asked of someone for say, simply disagreeing about whether an American policy is right or wrong, it is simply a pathetic and empty ad hom.

It is, to be concise, Colbertesque.
 
It saddens me that people feel they should zip their lip rather than opening discussions about a persons beliefs.

I think culturally, we're very much uncomfortable with open discourse about our beliefs, to the point where anyone doing so, even in a polite and coureous manner, is seen as arrogant, or a party pooper, or a person attacking others beliefs.

I think in fact that many of these beliefs persist precisely because they contain an element within them that discourages open discourse of their justifications.

People are also lazy. They don't want to research a topic and learn all about it. The generally start with a preconceived notion or two, find some anecdotes to support it, and let good old faith take care of the rest.

You should be as free to express your opinions around the water cooler as anyone else without being labelled a nasty cynic. You should be able to hold an open discussion about a persons beliefs and at the end, still go out for drinks after, because being adults, you should realize that we don't always agree on everything. Sadly, many people can't do that.

I know that's not precisely how our society seems to work, and while perhaps not caring what people personally think of you, that you must have a care at times as their opinions of you can have an impact at work, whether justified or not.

For myself, I express my opinions freely, but politely. Discussing them, rather than arguing about them or tearing them done. Tone of voice goes a long way. I don't advocate them out of the blue, but if asked, or if a conversation starts up about a topic, I will give my view. Even if its not the majority.

Some might ask what the point is, and for me, from personal experience, the person holding the belief may very well be impossible to convince otherwise. But others that are listening may very well see that what you are saying makes sense, and be turned to do a little investigating of their own, which is a good thing.
 
I just usually have a good debate with them, if they are true friends, then that's all it will be. If they aren't true friends then they will just say they are offended and storm off and never talk to you again.
 
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