Skepticism can lose friends...

I actually enjoyed it, as a book. As a social phenomenon, or a historical theory - meh. But it made quite a reasonable fiction novel. Some of his other books are better though.

I found it an ordinary mystery novel, nothing special, but OK as far as a few hours of entertainment goes. I actually listened to it as an audio book for a few afternoons while I was tidying up and doing similar boring household chores, and for that it was OK :) I guess though that it is possible that it appeared more mediocre to me than it actually was (even as just fiction, I mean) in the light of its undeserved status. I had heard so much about peoples' fascination with it that I really expected much more. Even if I knew that its claims about being "true" was nonsense, I thought it must still be quite an exceptional piece of fiction to create that sort of following - and that it was not!
 
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If you felt hurt and left out by what happened at your Christmas party, then you may need to learn that there are times when silence is golden.

Theres often a desire in all of us, no matter which side of the fence we are sitting on, to push our own beliefs onto anyone that will listen.

But in a social environment it is sometimes wise to let people just talk. If you don't agree or believe in what they are saying, is it really always worth trying to disprove them wrong?, you can ask questions about their expierence, but a blanketed, thats ********, followed by a monologue of facts and figures, will not endear them to listen further, but instead to make the assumption you are just trying to be difficult and embarrass them in front of others.

In my expierence in a 'social' environment, people are just making small talk... who is it hurting. Maybe instead of questioning every topic that comes up, it would be better to say something like "Id like to discuss this with you further another day, when its more appropriate'. Rather then make yourself come across as the person who wants to put everyone down.

I am not saying this is what you did, but it might be how it was perceived. In a group social gathering, there is a need for tolerance and respect. Usually in this situation, once the subject of the unknown etc begins, people will add their own anecdotes or stories..... as part of the conversational process. Trying to debunk every anecdote that pops up in conversation will only leave you looking arrogant and disrespectful, and sadly this is often how skeptics converse on these subjects, which stops everyone listening to them in the first place. Because what you are ultimately doing, is telling these people that whatever they believe, or feel to be true, I will refuse to listen to because I know more and will show your a fool.. and using words like thats BS etc, will not help you put your point across.

My advise in future is to listen, ask a few questions, and if it really is driving you nuts change the subject, leaving the real debate for another more serious time. and lets face it, no matter what anyone said to you that night, you would not take any of it seriously, having already made up your mind in general that nothing they might believe in exists. Its hard to have a two way conversation with a mind set like that. ( I a not accusing you of this, just pointing out that this is often how skepticism when it is thrown out at a social function is taken.)

Theres a time to fight for your beliefs or disbeliefs..... and a time to just relax and enjoy the diversity of people and what they hold true..... and a time.... to smile and say nothing.

But I do have to ask you this..... was the questioning of these anecdotes worth the alienation you felt afterwards? You don't have to become soft..... you just maybe need to choose the battles you fight more carefully and work out what are you trying to achieve. Do you want to be able to make fools of them all and destroy their credibility and / or beliefs..... or do you want to socialise and enjoy the night. The choice is yours.

As they say.. there are different horses for courses...... maybe next time, decide the course you want the night to take a little more thoughtfully.

I wish you well. :)
 
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If you felt hurt and left out by what happened at your Christmas party, then you may need to learn that there are times when silence is golden.

Theres often a desire in all of us, no matter which side of the fence we are sitting on, to push our own beliefs onto anyone that will listen.

But in a social environment it is sometimes wise to let people just talk. If you don't agree or believe in what they are saying, is it really always worth trying to disprove them wrong?, you can ask questions about their expierence, but a blanketed, thats ********, followed by a monologue of facts and figures, will not endear them to listen further, but instead to make the assumption you are just trying to be difficult and embarrass them in front of others.

In my expierence in a 'social' environment, people are just making small talk... who is it hurting. Maybe instead of questioning every topic that comes up, it would be better to say something like "Id like to discuss this with you further another day, when its more appropriate'. Rather then make yourself come across as the person who wants to put everyone down.

I am not saying this is what you did, but it might be how it was perceived. In a group social gathering, there is a need for tolerance and respect. Usually in this situation, once the subject of the unknown etc begins, people will add their own anecdotes or stories..... as part of the conversational process. Trying to debunk every anecdote that pops up in conversation will only leave you looking arrogant and disrespectful, and sadly this is often how skeptics converse on these subjects, which stops everyone listening to them in the first place. Because what you are ultimately doing, is telling these people that whatever they believe, or feel to be true, I will refuse to listen to because I know more and will show your a fool.. and using words like thats BS etc, will not help you put your point across.

My advise in future is to listen, ask a few questions, and if it really is driving you nuts change the subject, leaving the real debate for another more serious time. and lets face it, no matter what anyone said to you that night, you would not take any of it seriously, having already made up your mind in general that nothing they might believe in exists. Its hard to have a two way conversation with a mind set like that. ( I a not accusing you of this, just pointing out that this is often how skepticism when it is thrown out at a social function is taken.)

Theres a time to fight for your beliefs or disbeliefs..... and a time to just relax and enjoy the diversity of people and what they hold true..... and a time.... to smile and say nothing.

But I do have to ask you this..... was the questioning of these anecdotes worth the alienation you felt afterwards? You don't have to become soft..... you just maybe need to choose the battles you fight more carefully and work out what are you trying to achieve. Do you want to be able to make fools of them all and destroy their credibility and / or beliefs..... or do you want to socialise and enjoy the night. The choice is yours.

As they say.. there are different horses for courses...... maybe next time, decide the course you want the night to take a little more thoughtfully.

I wish you well. :)
Welcome to the forum. I understand and respect your argument, but taking this non-confrontationalist line can lead to believers in woo to tell everybody "I took on this know-it-all skeptic and he couldn't counter me". I know it can be costly, but I just have to speak up when faced with nonsense of the highest order. But thanks for your observations.
 
Never lecture people. It's no fun doing, it doesn't
Tell funny stories instead. You can get a load of ammunition from the JREF archives. Being a sceptic is fun, we get to laugh about all those believer's sillyness. And because most people are semi-sceptic, you can laugh with them about the silly things other people believe.

Haha. Good idea.


You can talk to them about your gullible 'friend' that falls for any scam.

Its funny, and it can make them think. And yeah, lecturing doesn't work. Ever. With anybody.


You have to work on delivery. The better and more interesting the content is presented, the more likely the people are willing to listen and consider what you have to say.

Seen the Rowan Atkinson clip on religion? I'm sure its on youtube or spikedhumor.


If he wasn't funny, he would have come off like such a snobby a-hole.
 
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Theres a time to fight for your beliefs or disbeliefs..... and a time to just relax and enjoy the diversity of people and what they hold true..... and a time.... to smile and say nothing.

Smile and nod. Never fails.

Alot of time people talk just to be heard.

Its very hard to get some people to consider new things. Its best to leave things be sometimes, and talk to those who you know are willing to listen.


It also helps to have some experience about what you are talking about. Tell them stories about how you were a researcher, or you were friends with someone who worked as an engineer and you always made all these weird machines... etc.


This way you come off as having some presence. That way when you lecture them about i.e. water powered cars and why they fail... they are more willing to listen.


Who would you rather listen to about the intricacies of engine systems:

1. A bum.
2. An engineer.

They can both be saying the same thing and be completely right. You will always take the engineer's word. Even if he is wrong. (assuming you know nothing about the subject)
 
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Smile and nod. Never fails.

Alot of time people talk just to be heard.

Its very hard to get some people to consider new things. Its best to leave things be sometimes, and talk to those who you know are willing to listen.


It also helps to have some experience about what you are talking about. Tell them stories about how you were a researcher, or you were friends with someone who worked as an engineer and you always made all these weird machines... etc.


This way you come off as having some presence. That way when you lecture them about i.e. water powered cars and why they fail... they are more willing to listen.


Who would you rather listen to about the intricacies of engine systems:

1. A bum.
2. An engineer.

They can both be saying the same thing and be completely right. You will always take the engineer's word. Even if he is wrong. (assuming you know nothing about the subject)
Welcome to another New Blood. What you may have missed (it's a long thread) is that I work in the training field. We play a part in the education of 30% of all trainees and apprentices in Australia (we make sure they are properly registered and funded). To have senior staff believing such rubbish in my industry is worrying. I know I am defending my reaction (fueled by alcohol), but I seriously would have done the same again.
 
I think we've all been there. I differentiate between a gathering of friends as opposed to co-workers, however.

The smile and nod method works well. I generally try to avoid engaging in serious conversation with those who are not open-minded, relatively intelligent and otherwise civil.

Actually, I think holding a minority political view is a more common, analogous experience.

In addition to 'smile and nod", I sometimes resort to the non-threatening question approach which, when they're answered honestly, often reveals the weakness in their position/beliefs.

For the most part, during such occasions does anyone ask me directly for my opinion, so unless I'm willing suffer the fallout by volunteering my thoughts, I stick to the standard trivial chatter.
 
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In addition to 'smile and nod", I sometimes resort to the non-threatening question approach which, when they're answered honestly, often reveals the weakness in their position/beliefs.
The weakness of this approach is that one never seems to be able to determine whether a particular question is non-threatening to a particular woo. I've occasionally asked a question which I thought was completely non-threatening, and they've bridled and gone all passive-aggressive on me. At which point one can only fall back on "smile and nod" and hope that any observers get the point.
 
The weakness of this approach is that one never seems to be able to determine whether a particular question is non-threatening to a particular woo. I've occasionally asked a question which I thought was completely non-threatening, and they've bridled and gone all passive-aggressive on me. At which point one can only fall back on "smile and nod" and hope that any observers get the point.

I agree! Some people don't like questions, period! They regard their beliefs as opinions that they are entitled to. Why should they have to defend it, or be asked questions about it? The only questions they want to answer are from people who are potential believers, and who are genuinely interested and who they can inform about their woo. It's hard for a skeptic to pretend interest of that kind, and I don't think you should either, to me that's close enough to lying to make me feel uncomfortable with it. So, if the woo isn't very daft, they will know rather quickly that you ask not to know more about the actual woo, but to make them question themselves and look critically at their own beliefs. Some welcome that, some (most?) do not.

Some know the technique very well, instinctively if nothing else, and wants to ask YOU these types of questions that will make YOU think, and will make YOU see what they see.

And some still are truly stu... not that very bright, and/or ignorant of very basic things, and you would have to explain so much background before starting to ask even these sort of questions, that it really isn't going to work.

Also, some that I have asked similar questions thinks it's a good way to debate them by turning every question back at you, without ever really answering them. Somewhat like this:

Q: "Why do you believe this?",
A: "Well, why do you believe what you believe in? I probably believe what I do for the same reasons!"

And you don't want to be the one to avoid questions like that, so you do answer as best you can, and then you end up having to defend why you believe in reality, :boggled: while you will never quite get to their UFO, or Guardian Angel-beliefs being questioned in the same way. If you insist on getting back to their beliefs, they claim you are the one who doesn't want to be questioned.

There are many reasons that the innocent, polite questioning doesn't seem to work, even if you are friendly to each other, and discussing things just between the two of you. As someone mentioned above, it never works well in a group of people, especially if the woo brought his/her beliefs up first, because then they feel they must defend themselves in front of people, and it all becomes a "save-face-situation", where no good arguments will get through.

But even when I have discussed such things with only me and a good friend, who claims to be open for discussing it - some/or all of the above problems arises anyway.

I have noticed, for example, that many of my friends who has wooish beliefs, have not really come to their beliefs by checking out every possible side of a certain subject and then choosing what they think sounds most logic or credible. They have gotten the idea from one, or a few similar, sources, and formed the belief in their heads with only, or mostly, the sort of input that spoke for the idea. They thus think they have a good case for their idea, and then, of course, it's easy to claim you will be open to discussing it. When you then present a lot of opposing ideas that they now maybe hear for the first time, they are suddenly less open to listening. They feel you kind of snuck up upon them with it.

As friends it gets complicated. A friend's role is, foremost, to be supportive and acceptive, not to question, and I agree, but sometimes being supportive and acceptive of some things is actually doing a friend a disservice instead. The friends that I feel I should be able to be most open with about how I view the world, and that I should be able to be most honest with how I see their beliefs, are the ones who also will be the most hurt if I do.
 
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I'm not sure it's so much a case of scepticsim losing friends as perceived rudeness.

If you openly contradict people in front of others and essentially say that they are being stupid then they don't tend to like you for it.
 

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