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Skepticism can lose friends...

lionking

In the Peanut Gallery
Joined
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The management group of my company had a Christmas Party yesterday. The 12 of us were having a good time with good food and drinks. A couple of hours in one of my colleagues said that one of our universities have started to teach water divining (dowsing) as part of one of their subjects (Swinburne for my aussie friends - and I will look into this!). He said that one of his skeptical staff witnessed one of the "teachers" and was convinced.

Normally I would have just let this go, but I did have a few drinks. I spoke about the MDC and how dowsing was nothing but BS. After a few minutes of supporting dowsing, one of my colleagues, who I would have thought was very sensible, then said "anyway, I can dream of things which happen in the future". "Tell me more" I asked and she told me a story of how she dreamed that one of her staff (50 plus) was pregnant. She went to her and asked if her daughter in law was pregnant. No was the answer, but a few days later she was pregnant, so the dream came true!

Ok, I saw the lie of the land and was about to drop the subject when my boss started to talk about the "healing hands" of her cousin. BS was my response.

Finally another manager, who I thought was the most sensible of all then asked "Well how can you explain the miracles of Jesus Christ?". I started to talk about the lack of primary source evidence of the actual existence of the man, but said "Well I have no problems with your faith" only to be told that I was wrong about everything. I will not go into the abysmal lack of knowlegde of the gospels of this person.

Anyway, in my attempt to maintain a skeptical stance that night, I was treated as a pain in the ass. I know I should have shut up and let the party go on, but, probably because of my involvement in the JREF couldn't let it go.

So how do you all respond to such ignorant superstition in a social environment, particularly with work colleagues?
 
What are you talking about, man? You were the life of the party. People talking to you, people talking about you, women approaching you, men fearing you... You're livin' the dream!
 
Good theory, but I went back to my room alone while everyone else went out partying.:) Is this the inevitable lot of the skeptic? If so is it worth it?
 
Perhaps its because these are just work colleagues i.e. not a group of friends? There is no reason at all to expect that outside work you will get on with, have anything in common bar work related topics and so on.

Now if you found this was the reaction to you from a group of people you considered were friends then there may be something to be concerned about.
 
So how do you all respond to such ignorant superstition in a social environment, particularly with work colleagues?

In such social groups, I offer to give a lecture later on. If people want specific claims explained, I'll incorporate them.
 
A Larsen Lecture! After the staff Christmas party too. Bet there'll be a lot of takers for that!

Sorry, Claus, but that's how it sounded to me! :D


LK, I've been there too - it isn't fun, is it. We fell for the first trap - we were forced to disprove their claim. Wrong! Other way round - they need to prove their claim. So I found a better way to "keep the peace" is to put your points by asking questions that put the "claimants" on the spot, not you. Standard skeptical approach.

E.g. the dowser testing - ask for full details of the testing: who, when, where, etc. Demand specifics; say you intend to follow up immediately on their details...if they have them. Chances are the person will have to concede that they heard it fifth-hand at some other drunken party, and that the story really has no basis in any reality at all.

Or the bible-basher: Use Claus's patented question: Evidence? Chances are he will fall back on faith (which is belief without evidence), at which point you can say that there's nothing material to debunk without any actual evidence, and you aren't interested in examining his faith (also, don't say his faith is crap - that's rude!).

This sort of approach has worked well, and others are much better at it than I.
 
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Good theory, but I went back to my room alone while everyone else went out partying.:) Is this the inevitable lot of the skeptic? If so is it worth it?

Aww, that sounded so sad :( Was it you that didn't want to go with them aymore, or did they actually not invite you out because of what you said?
 
LK - It gets better.

You start avoiding 'acquaintances' and their gatherings where they talk gullible drivel.

After a few years you may try to meet people that are not so gullible but find that they are much smarter and have an encyclopedia of facts and data for instant recall and find you have nothing to say in their company either.

After a time, just post on Internet forums and pretend you have a life.

.
 
LK - It gets better.

You start avoiding 'acquaintances' and their gatherings where they talk gullible drivel.

After a few years you may try to meet people that are not so gullible but find that they are much smarter and have an encyclopedia of facts and data for instant recall and find you have nothing to say in their company either.

After a time, just post on Internet forums and pretend you have a life.

.

Ah, I appear to have skipped straight to stage three.
 
lionking:

As for me, I avoid these sorts of problems by keeping my work life and my private life separate.

You may want to try that in the future.
 
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Hey, you still have us-- what are we, "chopped liver"?

There have been times when I'm smiling politely at vapid social events where these sorts of conversations are going on, and in my head I'm thinking,... "I wish I was online... I can't wait to tell my skeptic forum what these bozos said." Or I look for the pets. If the event is in a home with pets, I usually hang with the pets when the conversation turns to woo or is too inane to bear. If I liked alcohol, I'm sure it would help. But I don't like the taste, and sometimes it gives me more of a headache than woo.
 
Hey, you still have us-- what are we, "chopped liver"?

There have been times when I'm smiling politely at vapid social events where these sorts of conversations are going on, and in my head I'm thinking,... "I wish I was online... I can't wait to tell my skeptic forum what these bozos said." Or I look for the pets. If the event is in a home with pets, I usually hang with the pets when the conversation turns to woo or is too inane to bear. If I liked alcohol, I'm sure it would help. But I don't like the taste, and sometimes it gives me more of a headache than woo.

I recognize that! When the discussions turn really silly, I've also started to pet the dog or the cats of the family. Good reason to avoid the woo + I love animals :)
 
Good theory, but I went back to my room alone while everyone else went out partying.:) Is this the inevitable lot of the skeptic? If so is it worth it?

As the saying goes (sort of), Don't Drink and Defy.

Seriously, a lot of us have been there. You're the only one who can decide if it's worth it.
 
I was also stuck in once in this kind of situation (well, more than once actually). I was with some acquaintances having dinner and some drinks (and some more, and a bit more after that), and suddenly one of them starts to go on a long digression about those evil “big pharma” companies that actually were the source of most of the illnesses they sold their remedies for. Like, you know, duh, do you really believe that AIDS is natural? C’mon… They invented it so the could sell those tri-therapies!

I knew at that moment I should have just sent my mind wandering far away from this crap, but I just couldn’t. Maybe the fact that I’m a biologist specialized in virology and currently working in a “big pharma” helped a little, as well as the significant quantities of red wine in my blood.

Thus, I just entered the Juggernaut mode and meticulously broke down to pieces all the BS he was generating. Since he didn’t have the slightest knowledge in this, it wasn’t actually really difficult.

But after that, when looking around me, I just acknowledged that most of the conversations around us had died out, and that everyone was listening to us. So I just stopped, and appreciated the significantly colder atmosphere of the party. After awhile of awkward silence, the party went on, but it was clear that I was considered by many as the bad guy of the story, “humiliating” this poor fella in front of everyone. In fact most of them didn’t even care about the fact that he was pouring loads of lies and woo on us, apparently.

I must say that I found this episode quite depressing, and I was secretly thinking of the moment when I could discuss this online (that’s badly geek, I know). I now see that I’m not the only one to have been through this kind of situations…

(Sorry for the possible mistakes, English is not my first language)
 
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I must say that I found this episode quite depressing, and I was secretly thinking of the moment when I could discuss this online (that’s badly geek, I know). I now see that I’m not the only one to have been through this kind of situations…

No, your definitely not alone, I guess most here can tell of similar situations. I once had a very similar situation with someone who had totally bought into the Dan Brown da Vinci code stuff. No one thanked me for that either.
 
but it was clear that I was considered by many as the bad guy of the story, “humiliating” this poor fella in front of everyone. In fact most of them didn’t even care about the fact that he was pouring loads of lies and woo on us, apparently.
This is a common experience, I think. Truth and accuracy are not on the agenda.


Cardelitre said:
(Sorry for the possible mistakes, English is not my first language)
Why do you hate America?
 
I think it's a good idea to avoid drinking any alcohol at all on parties where you don't know the other guests well, on a private level. I for one can barely hold my tongue when I'm sober, let alone after one or two glasses of wine.

However, do try to enjoy regular free-for-all evenings with your close friends. Take those friends with you which will join you when your work yourself into a frenzy, when after a couple of beers the conversation happens to hit on some outrageous woo. You might get some stares if it's in a public location, but that only makes it more fun. :)

So, yes, it basically boils down to what has already been suggested: Separate your private life from your working life. But you might need more fine-grained categorization than that. For instance, family members could be a third category.
 
Ignorance is bliss is not a popular expression for no reason.


For social ocassions, leave it alone unless potential death/permanent damage is likely.
 
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