Sinn Fein Wins Irish Election

[Nessie]

My comment here;

All Sinn Fein are doing is promoting support for and waiting for a sufficient majority to vote for a united Ireland.

If enough people vote to unite Ireland, the Unionists would hopefully accept the result.

...was not meant to suggest that all Unionists would accept the vote, as some seem to think.

The reality would be more likely to be; a reigniting of the Troubles by Unionists inclined to violence and an exodus of others to live in the UK.

There are also moderate Unionists who would remain and who would accept democracy.

What they then do, who knows? They may try to keep NI as a devolved part of Ireland, so Ireland becomes like the UK, with devolved and a central government. I am sure they would try to retain and even further promote their Ulster and Protestant heritage, history and identities.

Only time will tell, I doubt anything will happen in my life time, but I do think Ireland will eventually unite.

 

[angrysoba]

My comment here;



...was not meant to suggest that all Unionists would accept the vote, as some seem to think.

The reality would be more likely to be; a reigniting of the Troubles by Unionists inclined to violence and an exodus of others to live in the UK.

There are also moderate Unionists who would remain and who would accept democracy.

What they then do, who knows? They may try to keep NI as a devolved part of Ireland, so Ireland becomes like the UK, with devolved and a central government. I am sure they would try to retain and even further promote their Ulster and Protestant heritage, history and identities.

Only time will tell, I doubt anything will happen in my life time, but I do think Ireland will eventually unite.

In the meantime, do the majority of people in Ireland want the six counties and the baggage that goes with it? Sound like a major law enforcement headache.

 

[Nessie]

Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.

I am not an IRA or Sinn Fein supporter. I recognize their past terrorism. I don’t forgive it. Many innocent people were killed by their thugs. But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this. Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive. Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical.

Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government.

Exactly. If there is to be no one who has a past that involved the supporting of terrorism, either actively planting bombs or enabling those who did, then many from both sides should not be in politics.

Sinn Fein supporters and politicians do not see themselves as the ones in the wrong. They can point to plenty of violence by the UK army and RUC during the Troubles.

 

[catsmate]

In the meantime, do the majority of people in Ireland want the six counties and the baggage that goes with it? Sound like a major law enforcement headache.

Not if you explain the costs.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Would you say that about the people who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers?

I'm sure there are plenty of people in the world that see Al-Qaeda as a legitimate authority and their use of violence as necessary and moral.

 

[Nessie]

I'm sure there are plenty of people in the world that see Al-Qaeda as a legitimate authority and their use of violence as necessary and moral.

As British, we are taught that fighting back against our numerous invasions, occupations, colonialisations and other foreign wars, interventions and excursions, is often the work of evil terrorists.

 

[angrysoba]

As British, we are taught that fighting back against our numerous invasions, occupations, colonialisations and other foreign wars, interventions and excursions, is often the work of evil terrorists.

I think most Irish people also see the IRA as terrorists, and most British people hopefully see “loyalist” paramilitaries as terrorist scum as well.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think most Irish people also see the IRA as terrorists, and most British people hopefully see “loyalist” paramilitaries as terrorist scum as well.

Probably depends on which era of the IRA you are referring to.

The provos operating in the time of The Troubles probably have the most unpalatable reputation. I doubt there is much allure to that type of militancy when reunification seems within grasp through non-violent means.

 

[angrysoba]

Probably depends on which era of the IRA you are referring to.

The provos operating in the time of The Troubles probably have the most unpalatable reputation. I doubt there is much allure to that type of militancy when reunification seems within grasp through non-violent means.

Yes, by IRA, I am referring to the Provos. Although the same can be said of the Conts.

 

[ahhell]

Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.

I am not an IRA or Sinn Fein supporter. I recognize their past terrorism. I don’t forgive it. Many innocent people were killed by their thugs. But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this. Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive. Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical.

Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government.

No one is stopping you from having your view on Sinn Fein. You haven’t said anything to persuade me to change my view though.

Do you have the same attitude toward Fine Gael and Fianna Fail? They both had their origins in the IRA which even in 1922 was a terrorist organization, especially Fianna fail, they lost the Civil War but quickly took political power for something like 70 years.

They haven’t done terrorism for years, and other people once did terrorism, too.

Martin McGuinness was the First Minister until 2017 and only died that same year. Gerry Adams was a TD until, literally, yesterday.

It’s not as if those involved in actual IRA activities are long gone.

For me, the burden of proof is on them to show they can be trusted. They have to earn that trust and haven’t yet.

It really does appear as though they legitimately gave up violence in 1998. How long do you need to believe they have changed.

Sixth.
You're forgetting:
The Emergency of 1939-40
The Emergency, part 2: 1932-44
The Border Campaign of 1956-62 ("The Patriot Game""

Don't forget the civil war.

 

[The Atheist]

Terrorists in NI have been continuing to bomb and shoot people all this century. That your news sources apparently don't carry those stories is quite strange if they are interested in reporting terrorist stories from the UK.

Ok, someone hasn't been editing Wikipedia, then.

I'll settle for "vastly reduced terrorist attacks" this century.

However, none of it appears to be connected to Sinn Fein.

 

[Mr Fied]

A united Ireland moves another step closer.

As does an independent Scotland. Everyone may soon get what they want from Brexit. The countries in the UK who wanted to stay will and the countries that wanted to leave will. They just won't be the UK anymore.

If they've got any sense they'll wait for Boris to spend squillions of pounds on the bridge before they leave the UK.

 

[ahhell]

I would bet a reborn Dal Riata before a united Ireland. Scotland and Ulster decide to leave the UK for the European Union as the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

[Darat]

Yes, but...



There's a new left/right divide in Irish politics but it's very fragmented and based on reaction to domestic issues. The 'old left' of Labour (and I'll include the SDs there) isn't doing well and the vote share is going to the Greens and Sinn Féin who, frankly, aren't fit to govern. Plus lots of independents and fringe idiots (remember Wallace ).



Plus let's look at the numbers:

38 Fianna Fáil

37 Sinn Féin (plus Tóibín)

35 Fine Gael

12 SD/Labour

12 Greens

6 Solidarity/PBP/I4C

18 Independents



Try and get a stable block of eighty out of that....



An xmas election I suspect.





Also I'd like to know the five thousand who voted for Barrett, Reynolds and their fellow fascists.

That's Ireland's own fault for not having the superior voting system we have in the UK for general elections. They should apply to become a member of the UK!

 

[dudalb]

What is the evidence that the current IRA is linked to these current violent terrorist factions? I am not arguing they are not, nor that they are. Just tell me.

Which IRA? There are a number of groups calling themselves the IRA out there.
Problem is given the 'Official" IRA's history, it's not unreasonable to suspect their non violence is just a tacitical move, and they will go back to their old ways when they think the time is right.

 

[dudalb]

In the meantime, do the majority of people in Ireland want the six counties and the baggage that goes with it? Sound like a major law enforcement headache.

That is a dirty little secret; A lot of people in the Republic sing the songs, and shout "4 Green Fields" but in reality don't want the whole mess of Ulster handed to them.

 

[dudalb]

As British, we are taught that fighting back against our numerous invasions, occupations, colonialisations and other foreign wars, interventions and excursions, is often the work of evil terrorists.

DO you think the 9/11 attacks were justified?

 

[Nessie]

DO you think the 9/11 attacks were justified?

No. Do you think all of the numerous US military actions in the Middle East were justified?

 

[Giordano]

IMO the "Irish Question" has generated among the most long lasting hatreds/never forget emotions of any political conflict. Events of hundreds of years ago are still periodically paraded out (sometimes literally) to revisit and to re-enliven these hatreds. At one level I understand. I've already indicated in another thread how I could never forgive if a loved one of mine was killed as "collateral damage" in a military strike. Worse still in a terrorist action.

But I still maintain that things change in ways that are important to recognize, if only for practical reasons. Terrorists die and are replaced with people who have not performed violent acts. Choosing to identify with and join Sinn Fenn may not laudable, but in effect these new recruits are changing Sinn Fenn from within, replacing violent thugs with people seeking achieving goals though politic action. Trust them or not, but one can still recognize the changes that have occurred. Fail to do so and one dooms both sides to an dystopian future that just extends the evils of the past hundreds of years.

 

[Giordano]

Which IRA? There are a number of groups calling themselves the IRA out there.
Problem is given the 'Official" IRA's history, it's not unreasonable to suspect their non violence is just a tacitical move, and they will go back to their old ways when they think the time is right.

The IRA with which Sinn Fein is associated. Recognizing that even that "official" IRA was/is composed of a spectrum of different subgroups, such as the provos. It is Sinn Fenn that is the topic of this thread.

That IRA has engaged in twenty years of a clear and documented pullback from violence since the Good Friday accords. If this was a tactical move then it has been a long one and certainly worth responding to appropriately to encourage its solidification and lengthy extension into the future. Perhaps if this "tactical move" is recognized and 'exploited" properly "they" will not go back to their old ways. Especially since so many of the most violent "they" are dead or very old farts.