Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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What bigfoot encounter? I don't claim to have seen a bigfoot.

Whoops, sorry. I thought you and your husband had each independently had encounters. I guess it was Lu that thought she saw a Bigfoot. Sorry again.

BTW, do you know who did the interview on the 2nd report you just posted?
 
Oh! You may have read that I saw something in Washington in 2004 but only through 3rd gen night vision (two other ladies saw it too). But as I stated in that write-up, I would never, ever count that as a sighting because it could have been a human. Unless I see the whites of its eyes, it an't a bigfoot.

I'm not sure who did the interview on the second report, it could have been me but I don't have any notes in my personal file (and it sure doesn't ring any bells). I think it may have been Al Berry.
 
Looks like "belz" is the next name to be added to the list of skeptics who can't answer questions in a debate!

You dance around definitions and semantics, you respond to questions with more questions, and then you say this ? I'm the one who can't answer questions ?

It happens on a regular basis here, and on the BFF, with skeptics....and ONLY with skeptics.

Of course!! Believers simply nod to one another. How could you possibly have problems with you own kind ?
 
There doesn't need to be an exact percentage.

In analysing evidence....a high probability, or a low probability would suffice.

Oh. Well that changes everything. :rolleyes:

Would you assign a "low" or a "high" probability to a single bigfoot track ? And considering the number of tracks found so far, how would you interpret the accumulation of those probabilities ?

Do you still think evidence has nothing to do with probabilities?

If you think you said anything to change my mind, guess again. Why would it be "probability" instead of "possibility" ?
 
2nd BFRO report

Dates of event: Week after July 4, 2000.
Submitted to BFRO by witness J. H. on April 4, 2003.
Date of BFRO interview of witness: Not given.

Witness wrote: "My son was awake but still in our tent. At this time we both heard the biggest loudest roar that was nothing like we had ever heard before. This roar came from the south end of the lake. My son quickly got out of the tent and we just started to ask each other what it was when there was another loud roar from across the lake. About ten seconds later there was another loud roar from way up in the Rubicon River canyon which was about 2 miles away. This roar was muffled because of the distance but was still loud enough to hear."

BFRO interviewer wrote: "It is likely that what the witness heard was a "young one" (first, high-pitched scream) and older bigfoots, calling back and forth to each other."

Firstly, how can anyone really estimate that a "roar" came from two miles away? Secondly, how can anyone read this report and then say it is likely that two (or more) Bigfoots were communicating to each other with a distance of 2 miles between them? I understand that the witness said there was more than one near the lake, but the very distant one is included in the context. Can anyone here do a napkin calculation of how long it would take for sound to travel 2 miles and then back again (the reply roar)? Ten seconds of elapsed time for the "round-trip" communication seems too short to me.
 
Bigfoot conceals his tracks, folks. That's why he can't be found in the vast snow covered areas in winter.

He drags a branch behind him or some other clever ruse, like only walking when it's snowing like hell.

Except when he forgets to.
Like when a believer is in town.
 
Bigfot roars can vibrate your chest wall, your pants and push you down ..

Bigfoot soundwaves cannot be explained by the acoustical physics already in place.. Like everything else, the true nature of all things Bigfoot, await a specimen..

Everything at BFRO is a sighting. So everything is described in terms of ' what the Bigfoot/s must have done ' .

There are no reports on BFRO with alternative explanations.
 
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There are no reports on BFRO with alternative explanations.

That's because the BFRO is actively engaging in Bigfoot promotion. A perpetuation of belief based on confirmation bias. They probably want to make sure that their interviewers act accordingly. I assume the interviewer positions are volunteers, so these people may self-select after they get an idea of what is going on at the BFRO. IOW, you don't volunteer unless you already are prepared to engage in confirmation bias - or at least not making rational alternative explanations. Are there any published BFRO reports in which the interviewer concluded something like, "Although the witness seemed credible and sincere, they almost certainly saw a bear instead of Bigfoot."?

Back to the mother/son camping trip. They didn't see a Bigfoot, but they were thoroughly convinced they heard multiple biggies.

A couple of months ago the same friend gave me a video tape of the Discovery Channel show about Bigfoot. When I heard the recordings of Bigfoot screams I knew then that we had heard the exact same thing. The only difference was that the screams we heard were louder. Probably because we were actually hearing them naturally and not on a tape. About a month later my son was able to view the Bigfoot video and when he heard the screams he said, Dad thats exactly what we heard. We listened to them several more times and agreed that we would submit a report.

Does anyone know what sounds are in the mentioned show? I know that some Bigfoot "vocalizations" have been discredited as being coyotes. I read that Roger Patterson once recorded himself yelling into a bucket, and then played it back for his audiences so they could hear what Bigfoot sounds like. I doubt that this mother/son were being hoaxed by anyone.

There has never been any doubt in our minds that the screams and roars we heard could not have come from any known animal species that lives in the Sierras.

Wow, this woman seems ultra confident of that proclamation.
 
belz wrote:
You dance around definitions and semantics, you respond to questions with more questions, and then you say this ? I'm the one who can't answer the questions?
Yup....that's right. YOU are!

Example:
I asked you....
Quote:
Do you still think evidence has nothing to do with probabilities?

And your "answer":
If you think you said anything to change my mind, guess again.
Why would it be "probability" instead of "possibility" ?

That's not an answer.
We're not playing "guessing games", belz. (At least I'm not.)
And your question back to me is NOT an answer.

Again....it's a simple question, belz. See what you can do with it....
Do you still think evidence has nothing to do with probabilities?

As for your question to me.....
Would you assign a "low" or a "high" probability to a single bigfoot track?
I haven't studied the footprint evidence...so I can't make a good assessment on any particular footprint.
Jimmy Chilcutt has, and he's assigned such a high probability factor to them that he says it's a definite that Bigfoot does exist.

And considering the number of tracks found so far, how would you interpret the accumulation of those probabilities ?
From the little I've read about some trackway finds...some found in very remote wilderness areas....I think they do indicate at least a good chance that Bigfoot is responsible for some of them.
 
kitakaze wrote:
Why do you ask more questions you think are tough when you persist in dodging tough ones to you?
I'm not dodging any questions which are relevant to the subject being debated.

I have been avoiding your "catch-of-the-year"....my contradiction. :o

Here it is.....

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
BTW, Ray....I haven't "eliminated all possibilities but two".

Oh really?
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
But for her to bother picking-up the phone and making a long-distance call to a total stranger...there HAS to be a reason...and there are ONLY 2 possible reasons....
1) To share an amazing experience with someone who also believes Bigfoot exists...and who she would get a positive response from.
2) To lie through her teeth to a stranger, when she probably had better things to do.

kitakaze wrote:
I've eliminated all possibilities but two:
1) You are lying.

2) Faulty memory.

Which is it, Kevin?

Answer........imperfect memory. (Martha faints.)

At the time I wrote "I haven't eliminated all possibilities but two", to Ray...I didn't remember the earlier statement I had made...
"But for her to bother picking-up the phone and making a long-distance call to a total stranger...there HAS to be a reason...and there are ONLY 2 possible reasons...."

A more appropriate way of wording the earlier statement I made would have been...
"But for her to bother picking-up the phone and making a long-distance call to a total stranger...there HAS to be a reason...and there are ONLY 2 probable...or plausible reasons...."

"Plausible" meaning an explanation which has a significantly better than "one-in-a-million" chance of being the correct explanation for her report.
"Possible" reasons would include any and all explanations....regarless of how miniscule the odds of them being true are.

An example of one "possible" reason, which I would not call "plausible" is the "shared faulty memory" explanation.
Joyce's sighting report involved both herself and her daughter.
What are the odds that both Joyce and her daughter mis-remembered the details of the event...so that later they both recalled what was actually just a Bear sighting as a Bigfoot sighting?
It may be a "possible" explanation....but it's EXTREMELY unlikely.
It's not a plausible explanation.
 
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kitakaze wrote:

Now here's one that seems to be tough for you, are claimed BF sightings weak evidence or strong?
Taken as a whole....they carry a significant amount of weight.
As for Joyce's sighting report....in light of her phone call to me....by my analysis, it carries a lot of weight.
I give it a very high "degree of probability", because none of the alternative explanations sensibly account for ALL these aspects of it....

1) The clarity and duration of the sighting,
2) Her daughter also seeing it,
3) Her husband supporting her story,
4) Her long-distance phone call to me, a total stranger...years after she filed the report.
 
Well, what I stated was we (meaning the forest service). I'm sure there are ecologists / biologist that work in the winter, but we (FS in the Sierras), start crews when the snow melts and run them until it snows again. I'm not sure we have species that we are tracking (on the Threatened and Endangered Species list) that require snow surveys.

So your spring/summer/fall crews don't find Bigfoot, and their winter crews don't find Bigfoot either. It makes no difference what "target" species is being studied or surveyed - because the science of ecology for any animal is related to the context of all other animals within their ecosystem. Imagine someone doing a survey or study on snowshoe hares who doesn't give a rat's ass about Bigfoot. They find some hare remains surrounded by gigantic human-like footprints. They are following hare tracks in snow to see what they are feeding on, and suddenly come upon gigantic humanlike footprints crossing the trail left by the hare. They park themselves about 100 feet from a small group of hares that are interacting to observe their behavior. After an hour, they notice a red fox is stalking the group from downwind. He's getting closer and closer. Then a Bigfoot flies out of the nearby treeline at 30mph and snatches the fox and proceeds to tear it in half. A second Bigfoot behind the biologist picks up a rock and heaves it at the poor guy.

Why are these the kinds of stories told by a myriad of "common folk", and not by the countless field biologists working countless hours over centuries? You offered two accounts of scientists - one heard unidentifiable sounds and the other might have seen a Bigfoot but is not too sure about that. The mother and son must have already had Bigfoot-on-the-mind because they pretty much decided on the spot that that was what was making all the racket out there. The dead fawn and deer are easily explained as almost anything other than Bigfoot casualties. But yet there they are, both reports sitting in the BFRO database. Do those two reports count in those "thousands" that Bigfooters are often talking about? Is it these kinds of things that are the sand grains that make up the dune of Bigfoot evidence? Or are these possibly droplets of water in a pond that many see? For many others, a small shift of the eyes causes the pond to vanish, because it was only a heat mirage. Kathy, from my perspective you seem almost too smart and too cool to believe that Bigfoot really does exist. Maybe I've got you all wrong.

I'm not sure, personally, what a bigfoot does in the winter, but if they were out, yes footprints should be more easily seen.

Well we do know that they don't reveal themselves to professional field biologists working in winter. I think we can say that.

A long term study in the area of historical sightings...during the day, food resources could be cataloged or survey done for prints, hair, etc., setting up trap cameras or whatever other high-tech stuff is out there and at night doing whatever you could to bring one in.

Catalog food resources? For Bigfoot? Don't we already have functionally complete knowledge of biodiversity (animal & plant) for the PNW? Scads of people (professional and laypeople) have already coursed through the PNW for centuries with no confirmation of Bigfoot. I've mentioned before that high-tech searches for missing people never result in finding a Bigfoot instead.

If after a year, you got nothing...there you go!

There who goes? Since one can't really prove a negative (i.e. Bigfoot doesn't exist), then what are we left with after a fruitless search? As it is now, the BF evidence is not very compelling to many scientists other than Meldrum. Much of his thesis is based upon the PGF being the real deal. His mid-tarsal break is only a feature of the foot if Patterson didn't scam the world. Some footprints show dermals, but only if Chilcutt isn't wrong about that. Matt Crowley who?

Bigfootery is not about an animal; it's about beliefs in that animal and mostly about believing what others have to say about it. Nothing can be linked directly to this hypothetical creature. Given that, a failed search would probably only cause a temporary ripple through Bigfootery. During that year-long PNW search, we should expect to get more sightings in New York, Iowa, Florida, etc. The New Jersey believers will bitch and moan and say it was a waste of time and money, because THEY have got the biggies right there in the Garden State. Don't think so? Wanna call those guys liars, or near-sighted or something? Wanna do it to their faces? Hey, if the eastern sightings increase, it's because those PNW Bigfoots heard the search team coming and migrated towards the Atlantic. They might even go the other way, so station some team members on Vancouver Island to intercept the swimmers.

I don't think sightings happen anywhere at any time.

The reports suggest to me that that is almost true.

I don't think I suggested that funds be allocated to "survey" for range or ecology; what I meant by survey was finding the creature (I apologize...I tend to use terms that are archaeological...survey to me means physically being out in the field looking for something).

Understood. But the moment the creature is found with confirmation, much of its ecology will become self-evident. It's ecology should already be apparent even without a "finding", because large animals like that leave much evidence of their presence. We can't find that stuff right now. It's a kind of bizarre chicken-and-egg thing that doesn't make sense. Even if we find one tomorrow, at the rate we are going it could take another 400 years to find a second one. Are they all living in, or retreating to a valley that nobody ever goes to?

It does seem strange, doesn't it?

That's an understatement! But strong Bigfoot skepticism isn't strange at all. It's about the only thing making any sense.

The few that have stated to have shot one always seem to a) claim they buried the evidence or b) the animal got away. I have never dealt with a witness who made that claim, and honestly I wouldn't believe them if they did.

Why? Would you think they are liars?
 
Kathy, from my perspective you seem almost too smart and too cool to believe that Bigfoot really does exist. Maybe I've got you all wrong.

I don't believe anyone has ever used the term "cool" in conjunction with my name before...unless it was 'cool-whip' and the statement involved, "hey stopping eating all that...":)

Bigfootery is not about an animal; it's about beliefs in that animal and mostly about believing what others have to say about it. Nothing can be linked directly to this hypothetical creature. Given that, a failed search would probably only cause a temporary ripple through Bigfootery. During that year-long PNW search, we should expect to get more sightings in New York, Iowa, Florida, etc. The New Jersey believers will bitch and moan and say it was a waste of time and money, because THEY have got the biggies right there in the Garden State. Don't think so? Wanna call those guys liars, or near-sighted or something? Wanna do it to their faces?

Well, there are two points with this. 1) I truly do not believe these folks are lying. I truly believe THEY believe what they see/smell/hear is bigfoot. I have worked with people in the field that saw/heard/smelled exactly the same things I did, but to them it was a bigfoot experience. Nothing I said mattered. At no point did I think they were lying, but they clearly "wanted" it too much and were no longer objective.

2) Belief..yes..there is definitely some of that as well, for myself included. Bigfoot has been a part of my life for a very long time and I have very, very fond memories of camping, hiking, and having a good time in search of bigfoot (I ALWAYS have a good time when I'm in the field). I love the idea of the mystery and hunting for an answer. Would I someday feel frustrated if/when the answer never comes? Maybe. I don't think, in the end, bigfoot is ever going to be proved not to exist, but as time passes, people find their own proof (like Matt) or their "faith" wavers. Where am I? Currently, I am strong in the force... (and for the record, I don't believe in UFOs, Nessie, Mothman, flying animal things, ghosts, fairies, etc....)

Why? Would you think they are liars?

Yep or they're nuts...because they are unlike the examples above.
 
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Look what real field biologists labored to produce for the Beartooth Plateau in the central Rocky Mountains. It's a partial, sub-alpine trophic web which excludes birds that eat plants or insects. Gulo = wolverine. If we see one of these for the PNW, it will include Bigfoot right?

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Lu is always posting pictures of expansive wilderness scenes. I thought I'd do something different. This one is for Huntster. I wonder if this ornry little guy has ever seen a Bigfoot. The photographer got a great picture, eh?

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Joke for an Alaskan hunter: What do you find if you follow a wolverine's tracks in snow? Teeth!

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What are Jimmy Chilcutt's qualifications for identifying Sasquatch dermal ridges? Who taught him about non-human primate dermal ridges? Who awarded him credentials in the field of non-human primate dermals?

What qualifies him in any field relating to identifying primate dermals other than his experience collecting human fingerprints and comparing them to known samples?

Is there anything other than his word that he knows anything at all about non-human dermals?
 
You dance around definitions and semantics, you respond to questions with more questions, and then you say this ? I'm the one who can't answer questions ?
Belz, this is one of Sweaty's most classic typical behaviours. Our young friend seems to take particular relish in accusing others with a straight face of some of the lamer things he does as though it's not beyond pitiful. What's really quite laughable is that it would seem that Baby Dangling thinks he's somehow making a solid argument for sightings. Any decent proponent would admit that sightings claims are some of the least reliable evidence and get over but not Sweaty. He's more interested in snake oil pitching because by his own admission he's not particularily interested in pursuing more substantial matters. His treasured Joyce-capade is the biggest running joke of this thread if only for the fact that he doesn't seem to get it.
Of course!! Believers simply nod to one another. How could you possibly have problems with you own kind ?
Trust me, footers have plenty to fuss over and they do. Such as the ethics of shooting a myth, whether or not bigfoots speak (and if they do whether it might be Chinese or Tlingit), and the always entertaining 'where to put the big red circle?'
 
...snip...Wildlife Biologist working for the FS

Wildlife biologist

There are a couple more that I can't seem to find...but I'll keep looking.
...snip...

Well, there was actually just a glimpse of the creature at one report. It was seen at the corner of the witness' field of view, where we are quite good at detecting movment but quite poor when it comes to actually identifying shapes, but rely mainly on a "quick interpretation" (quoting Pearl Jam: "Its evolution, baby!). It might as well have been a case of pareidolia. The rest of the report (the ehxausted buck, the slain doe, the feeling of a presence in the woods) may not have any true link with the fleeting glimpse,
out of the corner of eye.

And the other one, unless I missed it, they just heard what they interpreted as being at least two bigfeet. Some wishfull thinking might be the cause.

These sort of reports have, indeed another use. We can wonder what they could look like 10 or 20 years later, after "details" are added by the memory to fill gaps. Or what they would look like after being "upgraded" by some "enthusiastic" researchers.
 
That's not an answer.
We're not playing "guessing games", belz. (At least I'm not.)

1. You know very well what "guess again" means, Sweaty. I can only surmise that you are beign deliberatly obtuse, here, and that you are not interested in discussing evidence.

2. Yes, you most certainly ARE playing guessing games, since you have no evidence whatsoever, outside of "sightings" that YOU interpret as beign real evidence of a real bigfoot, although nothing actually allows you to reach that conclusion. Speculation is guessing.

Do you still think evidence has nothing to do with probabilities?

I stand by what I said. Did you miss that ?

I haven't studied the footprint evidence...so I can't make a good assessment on any particular footprint.
Jimmy Chilcutt has, and he's assigned such a high probability factor to them that he says it's a definite that Bigfoot does exist.

Well, maybe you can e-mail him and ask him how much % he assigned to that track, and how he calculated the final "probability factor". Then maybe you can answer my question.

The fact is, of course, that you can't, because single pieces of evidence do NOT carry a probability factor. Each piece of evidence is either reliable or not, and the sum total of them can either lead to replicable results or not. Science isn't about chance.
 
I'm not dodging any questions which are relevant to the subject being debated.
How so?
I have been avoiding your "catch-of-the-year"....my contradiction.
We never would have guessed.:rolleyes: Calling it a 'catch of the year' seems to imply that you think there are not other cases where you have not been clearly wrong. Is that the case?
Answer........imperfect memory. (Martha faints.)
(Martha has a flare for the dramatic.) It only took a month and being brought up more times than I feel like counting to admit the obvious. Awww, that's so cute. I guess 'imperfect' had a nicer ring to it than 'faulty'. I think I'll leave the rest of your spin for the next post.
 
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