Split Thread Signs of the End Times

[Paul Bethke]

Nonsense. You're just being lazy. I was even doing the bulk of the work in that thread. The way that thread worked out all you had to do was tell me if I was wrong on a particular item and, optionally, explain your reasoning. I deliberately switched to the categorical listing to make it FASTER to go through the list. For example, all the laws about Passover were answered with your simple statement that you do not observe Passover.

Besides, you CLAIM that following most of those laws are part of being a good Christian. If going though them is futile how are do you expect to convey to anyone ELSE which ones Christians are supposed to follow. You are literally taking one of the cornerstones of your peculiar theology and declaring it futile to elucidate it. You are declaring evangelism itself to be futile by refusing to engage in it.

In light of your insistence that this is a "futile" discussion due to "the time it would take" I am embarking upon a little writing project of my own. The Atheist's Guide to the 613 Mitzvot. The title is work in progress. I'm really more of a deist myself. My goal is to go through the list before the end of 2016. Let's see if I make it.

So you say!

 

[JayUtah]

I never ran away from the discussion regarding the 613 Mitsvot—I showed how futile this would be...

Yeah, you ran away. The alleged futility was just your excuse to save face.

 

[halleyscomet]

Must never say never, because never does not exist---no I have been presenting that for so many years—I have not yet proved it—but do not fret, the time is decreed.

Adding the bolded text to your wishful thinking doesn't give it any more weight.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Yeah, you ran away. The alleged futility was just your excuse to save face.

So you say!

 

[Paul Bethke]

Adding the bolded text to your wishful thinking doesn't give it any more weight.

So you say!

 

[halleyscomet]

So you say!

Did you forget that we long ago agreed that was your concession phrase?

Now that you admit you are fleeing a critical component of evangelizing your "message," why are you doing so? How are people supposed to follow your rules if you refuse to tell anyone what the rules are?

As for the alleged futility of going through the 613, If I get through them with about the level of detail you gave in your brief foray into actually communicating, then I'll have proven I was right and you were wrong. I'd set no timetable in my original efforts to communicate with you, so I'm not feeling terribly bound by the goal I've set for my own examination of the laws, but as long as progress is being made, your laziness is being exposed.

Yeah, you ran away. The alleged futility was just your excuse to save face.

I'm tempted to speculate on WHY an alleged prophet who supposedly has a message to teach us is so terrified of actually expressing a particular interpretation of specific passages, but I think I'll save most of that that speculation for the story I'm writing inspired by him.

Ultimately I think he's terrified of losing the wiggle room. It's clear from his writing that he's used to gaslighting people in real life, and being unable to do so reliably here is forcing him to rethink his strategies. Instead of settling on a cohesive theology however he's choosing to dodge actual discussion.

So you say!

Again, thank you for conceding my point.

 

[Slowvehicle]

In the Churches a lot is said that is not what God said—for instance people talk of the rapture—but there is no rapture---the Churches makes rules that are based on tradition—the Churches condone adultery—there are many things that man states that is contrary to what God decreed.

The people in the Church eat pig—God said do not eat the swine.

And yet, 'god' also said to keep Passover, which, by your own admission, you do not. (We have been over Peter's vision, you and I, and you deny the actual words--no need to do so again.) You are making (up) your own "rules"...

 

[halleyscomet]

And yet, 'god' also said to keep Passover, which, by your own admission, you do not. (We have been over Peter's vision, you and I, and you deny the actual words--no need to do so again.) You are making (up) your own "rules"...

Not only is he making up his own rules, he's declaring efforts to communicate them to others to be "futile."

Piss poor prophet if you ask me.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Did you forget that we long ago agreed that was your concession phrase?

Now that you admit you are fleeing a critical component of evangelizing your "message," why are you doing so? How are people supposed to follow your rules if you refuse to tell anyone what the rules are?

As for the alleged futility of going through the 613, If I get through them with about the level of detail you gave in your brief foray into actually communicating, then I'll have proven I was right and you were wrong. I'd set no timetable in my original efforts to communicate with you, so I'm not feeling terribly bound by the goal I've set for my own examination of the laws, but as long as progress is being made, your laziness is being exposed.



I'm tempted to speculate on WHY an alleged prophet who supposedly has a message to teach us is so terrified of actually expressing a particular interpretation of specific passages, but I think I'll save most of that that speculation for the story I'm writing inspired by him.

Ultimately I think he's terrified of losing the wiggle room. It's clear from his writing that he's used to gaslighting people in real life, and being unable to do so reliably here is forcing him to rethink his strategies. Instead of settling on a cohesive theology however he's choosing to dodge actual discussion.



Again, thank you for conceding my point.

You are trying to dwarf my simple approach to what is required for a person to repent—so I do not see any need to go through the 613 commands that are compiled by man.

It is evident that most of the commands are not applicable to present day faith—it is good to check which of those commands are redundant, due to the Temple being no more the centre of Jewish faith.


The Temple, the Sanctuary and Sacred Objects
426. Not to build an altar of hewn stone (Ex. 20:22) (negative).
427. Not to mount the altar by steps (Ex. 20:23) (negative).
428. To build the Sanctuary (Ex. 25:8) (affirmative).
429. Not to remove the staves from the Ark (Ex. 25:15) (negative).
430. To set the showbread and the frankincense before the L-rd every Shabbat (Ex. 25:30) (affirmative).
431. To kindle lights in the Sanctuary (Ex. 27:21) (affirmative).
432. That the breastplate shall not be loosened from the ephod (Ex. 28:28) (negative).
433. To offer up incense twice daily (Ex. 30:7) (affirmative).
434. Not to offer strange incense nor any sacrifice upon the golden altar (Ex. 30:9) (negative).
435. That the kohein shall wash his hands and feet at the time of service (Ex. 30:19) (affirmative). SeeKohein.
436. To prepare the oil of anointment and anoint high kohanim and kings with it (Ex. 30:31) (affirmative). See Kohein.


So how do these commands apply to the faith?

 

[JayUtah]

So you say!

Yes I do. And apparently this is all you can say in response. Stuck in a corner there, Paul?

See, you seem to believe no one reading your threads can see your obvious deception. They see you profess to live the Mizvot, and they see you fail to substantiate that, and they see you backpedal away and pretend you never made any such claim.

They see you profess an expert knowledge of the scriptures, and they see you fumbling around using poor translations you didn't research, and they see you trying to pretend it was all a problem of interpretation.

They see you profess to prophesy, and they see you making claims about Year 5777 and so forth, and they see you make excuses for your failed prophecy and they see you backing away from specific claims, and they see you pretend you never made them.

Do you really think your critics cannot see all these pretexts?

 

[Border Reiver]

I never ran away from the discussion regarding the 613 Mitsvot—I showed how futile this would be and the time it would take to go through all the 613 Mitvot.

You can call it what you want - but we can see you ran away. When the Wehrmacht kept moving westwards from Moscow and Stalingrad it was called "shortening the front" or carrying out a tactical adjustment of the lines, and maybe some people believed it. By the time the front was at Warsaw....

 

[halleyscomet]

You are trying to dwarf my simple approach to what is required for a person to repent—so I do not see any need to go through the 613 commands that are compiled by man.

It is evident that most of the commands are not applicable to present day faith—it is good to check which of those commands are redundant, due to the Temple being no more the centre of Jewish faith.


The Temple, the Sanctuary and Sacred Objects
426. Not to build an altar of hewn stone (Ex. 20:22) (negative).
427. Not to mount the altar by steps (Ex. 20:23) (negative).
428. To build the Sanctuary (Ex. 25:8) (affirmative).
429. Not to remove the staves from the Ark (Ex. 25:15) (negative).
430. To set the showbread and the frankincense before the L-rd every Shabbat (Ex. 25:30) (affirmative).
431. To kindle lights in the Sanctuary (Ex. 27:21) (affirmative).
432. That the breastplate shall not be loosened from the ephod (Ex. 28:28) (negative).
433. To offer up incense twice daily (Ex. 30:7) (affirmative).
434. Not to offer strange incense nor any sacrifice upon the golden altar (Ex. 30:9) (negative).
435. That the kohein shall wash his hands and feet at the time of service (Ex. 30:19) (affirmative). SeeKohein.
436. To prepare the oil of anointment and anoint high kohanim and kings with it (Ex. 30:31) (affirmative). See Kohein.


So how do these commands apply to the faith?

You claim that modern Christians are supposed to still be following a lot of the Old Testament laws. If you're going to make a proclamation like that and expect people to follow it, then you'd damn well better give general guidelines and be prepared to answer specific questions.

As to the list you just gave, how many of these rules are supposed to apply to Christian Churches? If we're to follow the Old Testament laws than it's obvious that many of the temple rules would transfer over to the Church.

Obviously the laws about the Ark of the Covenant don't apply unless it surfaces or is found. Are modern churches required to build a new Ark of the Covenant? If not, why not? If so, is it one per church or will one at the Synod headquarters suffice?

Are pastors required to follow the same ritual cleansing rules as Jewish priests? For example must the pastor "wash his hands and feet at the time of service?"

"To offer up incense twice daily," is easily applicable to a modern church.

Do I need to go through each one individually for you to get the point?

 

[Crossbow]

Must never say never, because never does not exist---no I have been presenting that for so many years—I have not yet proved it—but do not fret, the time is decreed.

So you say!

 

[Paul Bethke]

You claim that modern Christians are supposed to still be following a lot of the Old Testament laws. If you're going to make a proclamation like that and expect people to follow it, then you'd damn well better give general guidelines and be prepared to answer specific questions.

As to the list you just gave, how many of these rules are supposed to apply to Christian Churches? If we're to follow the Old Testament laws than it's obvious that many of the temple rules would transfer over to the Church.

Obviously the laws about the Ark of the Covenant don't apply unless it surfaces or is found. Are modern churches required to build a new Ark of the Covenant? If not, why not? If so, is it one per church or will one at the Synod headquarters suffice?

Are pastors required to follow the same ritual cleansing rules as Jewish priests? For example must the pastor "wash his hands and feet at the time of service?"

"To offer up incense twice daily," is easily applicable to a modern church.

Do I need to go through each one individually for you to get the point?

I have on numerous occasions pointed out where a person is to be considered in order to find forgiveness.
There is no way that I must confront any one on the basis of the 613 Mitvot.
The Decalogue is the basis for consideration for a person to be considered ---the tablets no longer exist—but we have what was written on them. Exodus 20.

What is considered is the moral law, that is tangible to people.
So that is where I start—the do nots.
Do not lie—do not steal---do not commit adultery.

There after I present the dietary laws and the Sabbath.

Now I am not saying that the laws compiled in the Mitvot have no application, but must be considered as practical. Laws pertaining to justice, may be in conflict with the laws of a democracy—what is to be noted is that when the Kingdom of God is established, many of these laws will be implemented.

So you see I do not see the point in going through all those Mitvot—let people first be judged on the content of the Decalogue.

 

[JayUtah]

So you see I do not see the point in going through all those Mitvot—

Because you suggested the special role God has for you in the end times was based in some part upon your claim to scrupulously obey them and thus be a suitable vessel for God to repose his delegated powers. We're testing that claim as part of evaluating your larger claim to have a special role in the end times.

 

[Slowvehicle]

So you say!

No, so reality indicates, to even the most casual observer.

 

[Slowvehicle]

So you say!

No, so the rules of grammar indicate, to even the least skilled observer.

 

[Slowvehicle]

You are trying to dwarf my simple approach to what is required for a person to repent—so I do not see any need to go through the 613 commands that are compiled by man.

It is evident that most of the commands are not applicable to present day faith—it is good to check which of those commands are redundant, due to the Temple being no more the centre of Jewish faith.


The Temple, the Sanctuary and Sacred Objects
426. Not to build an altar of hewn stone (Ex. 20:22) (negative).
427. Not to mount the altar by steps (Ex. 20:23) (negative).
428. To build the Sanctuary (Ex. 25:8) (affirmative).
429. Not to remove the staves from the Ark (Ex. 25:15) (negative).
430. To set the showbread and the frankincense before the L-rd every Shabbat (Ex. 25:30) (affirmative).
431. To kindle lights in the Sanctuary (Ex. 27:21) (affirmative).
432. That the breastplate shall not be loosened from the ephod (Ex. 28:28) (negative).
433. To offer up incense twice daily (Ex. 30:7) (affirmative).
434. Not to offer strange incense nor any sacrifice upon the golden altar (Ex. 30:9) (negative).
435. That the kohein shall wash his hands and feet at the time of service (Ex. 30:19) (affirmative). SeeKohein.
436. To prepare the oil of anointment and anoint high kohanim and kings with it (Ex. 30:31) (affirmative). See Kohein.

So how do these commands apply to the faith?

The same way "Peter's" "vision" removed the regulations of diet from all the "faithful"...

 

[Slowvehicle]

Because you suggested the special role God has for you in the end times was based in some part upon your claim to scrupulously obey them and thus be a suitable vessel for God to repose his delegated powers. We're testing that claim as part of evaluating your larger claim to have a special role in the end times.

Ooopsie! There goes that whole "judge me by the 'decalogue' " thing ("false witness", and all...).

 

[Paul Bethke]

Because you suggested the special role God has for you in the end times was based in some part upon your claim to scrupulously obey them and thus be a suitable vessel for God to repose his delegated powers. We're testing that claim as part of evaluating your larger claim to have a special role in the end times.

That is why I present the requirements of the faith—if as I do live in a land that has abolished the laws of the Creator, there is not much I can do until the Kingdom of God is established which will annul the laws that were made in opposition to the laws of God.

As I said, I do not live in Israel and I am not a Jew---the Jews live in accordance with their faith, which does not recognise Jesus as the Messiah. The Gentiles have a faith that accepts the death of Jesus as a propitiation for those who repent, so much of the Mitvot is set aside.

The council in Jerusalem advocated that Gentiles be subject to the initial requirement of abstaining from sexual immorality and the drinking of blood and food sacrificed to idols.---

Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

So Moses is still to be considered, but sexual immorality and blood was an initial requirement----so as it was then so it is now.
The purpose of the END TIME is to eradicate sexual immorality.