Siesmic Evidence Proves Inside Job?

[DavidJames]

I'm still catching up with this thread, but my career involves accurate measurements and metrology. Pretty much every clock in the world is calibrated to UTC, including the clock on your grandmother's end table. Most have a corresponding offset added for time zone and summer time / DST. The accuracy of those calibrations varies tremendously.

Perhaps I'm using the incorrect terminology, maybe I should have said synchronized.

I'm pretty sure the clock on my grandmothers end table would be (if she were alive and had an end table) at least 12-15 seconds different from the atomic clock in Boulder

 

[LashL]

William Rodriguez and 36 other people report being blasted by a huge explosion in the basement of tower 1, and report then hearing the jet impact seconds afterwards.

36 others? The number seems to grow each time a CTer tells the story. Please name the 36 others that you cite and provide evidence of their reports.

There are credible reports of elevators being blown off their hinges in the lobby, and these particular elevators did not go all the way up to where the plane hit.

Yes, there are numerous credible reports of elevators being blown out (elevators do not operate on hinges, by the way.)

So? What is your point?

The only elevator that did go all the way to where the plane hit had a person in it, the elevator operator, and he only had broken ankles, and was not burned.

It is not true that there is only one elevator that went all the way up, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. It is not surprising that you ignored the facts that were presented to you. You are misrepresenting the actual events surrounding Mr. Griffith and the elevator he was in, and ignoring the fact that it fell to the sub basement, among other things.

 

[CurtC]

I'm pretty sure the clock on my grandmothers end table would be (if she were alive and had an end table) at least 12-15 seconds different from the atomic clock in Boulder

You betcha. But this hypothetical grandmother's clock was still calibrated, eventually to a primary standard such as what they have in Boulder. But since very few clocks get set directly off that primary standard, almost every clock in the world is set indirectly, some through more layers of indirection than others, and many of those layers can be done with very little care, resulting in gross inaccuracies. But it still goes back to UTC and primary standards eventually, unless your grandmother set her clock by the position of the Sun.

 

[CurtC]

There are many other things very wrong about 9/11 that push one way past reasonable doubt if one only looks into the matter.

You remember when you first appeared, and someone called TruchSeeker1234 a dipstick (and you thought it was directed to you)?

The reason he was called a dipstick is because of his pattern here - he makes a claim that he can't back up with facts, then moves on to a completely different topic without admitting that he could not support his claim.

And here you've done exactly the same thing. I'm just pointing this out now, so that you can try to avoid behavior that might result in your getting called a dipstick yourself.

 

[DavidJames]

You betcha. But this hypothetical grandmother's clock was still calibrated, eventually to a primary standard such as what they have in Boulder. But since very few clocks get set directly off that primary standard, almost every clock in the world is set indirectly, some through more layers of indirection than others, and many of those layers can be done with very little care, resulting in gross inaccuracies. But it still goes back to UTC and primary standards eventually, unless your grandmother set her clock by the position of the Sun.

Thank you, my orginal choice of terminology was wrong.

Now for a bit of derail related to your comments. I used to be an MVS systems programmer on IBM big iron. I would often be around when the computers were "IPL'd". Part of that process was to actually set the system clock. The clock that would then be used, at whatever high level of precision the 360/370 was capable of. When it came time to set the highly precise clock, one of us would look at our watch and say "hmm, it's about 7:30".

 

[Mashuna]

Thank you, my orginal choice of terminology was wrong.

Now for a bit of derail related to your comments. I used to be an MVS systems programmer on IBM big iron. I would often be around when the computers were "IPL'd". Part of that process was to actually set the system clock. The clock that would then be used, at whatever high level of precision the 360/370 was capable of. When it came time to set the highly precise clock, one of us would look at our watch and say "hmm, it's about 7:30".

Sorry to continue the derail, but I remember doing this kind of thing. IPLs when the clocks changed were especially fun, doing 18 images in an hour. We'd only run into problems in the autumn, when the clocks went back and we set the clock to a time that it thought had already elapsed, then wondered why all the databases were failing.

 

[Loss Leader]

Yes, there are numerous credible reports of elevators being blown out (elevators do not operate on hinges, by the way.)

First of all, I lived at 227 Have Avenue in New York City a while back and that crappy apartment building had an elevator whose outer doors were just ... doors. Regular hinged outward-swinging doors. They were held shut by a magnet. When the elevator got to your floor, you opened the door, stepped in, shut the door and then the elevator moved with nothing between you and the moving wall.

I believe the WTC probably had more modern elevators than my apartment in Washington Heights.

Second, we are way the heck through the looking glass on this one. We're now relying on seismographic equipment 30 miles away to tell us what thousands of people actually witnessed? That's just nuts.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

You have not shown the clocks were synchronized

You have not shown the clocks reporting the crash and the seismograph clocks were synchronized.

Do you understand that?

The linked paper, does indeed show that both clocks are calibrated to UTC on a daily basis. Neither could possibly be off by anything more than a fraction of a second.

Loss Leader accidentally stumbles close to the truth with

We're now relying on seismographic equipment 30 miles away to tell us what thousands of people actually witnessed? That's just nuts.

Right, LL. Eyewitness testimony is important, not to be dismissed, especially when corroborated by other types of data. Eyewitnesses saw a plane hit the south tower. Eyewitnesses also reported massive explosions in the basement, BEFORE the jet impact. The radar data and the seismic data support the eyewitness testimony perfectly.

What's "nuts", LL, is concocting a story at odds with both the eyewitness testimony AND the seismic data, and the radar data. Yet this is exactly what you and the others have done. This is anti-science. There is no other way to put it. You are just tossing out data because it doesn't fit your hypothesis.

Ross-Furlong are right, and the fact that this thread, like so many others, is 90% ad hominem attacks, well this is just reassuring.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

The linked paper, does indeed show that both clocks are calibrated to UTC on a daily basis. Neither could possibly be off by anything more than a fraction of a second.

what are you basing this on? the clock in my PC gets off by more than 5 minutes in a 24 hour period, calibrated to UTC doesnt mean anything, we went over this already

Eyewitnesses also reported massive explosions in the basement, BEFORE the jet impact.

and how do witnesses in the basement judge when the jets hit? im reasonably certain they couldnt see them down there

 

[R.Mackey]

The linked paper, does indeed show that both clocks are calibrated to UTC on a daily basis. Neither could possibly be off by anything more than a fraction of a second.

Show us where in the paper it says that. What page, and quote the paragraph.

Or else you're lying again.

 

[rwguinn]

Show us where in the paper it says that. What page, and quote the paragraph.

Or else you're lying again.

You mean "Still", I think....

 

[DavidJames]

Show us where in the paper it says that. What page, and quote the paragraph.

Or else you're lying again.

These are the relative quotes making the basis for his claim. I found no footnotes, links, quotes to substantiate the claims in (my) bolding. For all we know, he made it up. The word calibrate does not appear in the document

There exist two separate precision data time sets that address when the aircraft crashed into the Towers. Both data time sets are based on UTC (Coordinated Universal Time, the world’s atomic clock system) and the sources that determined these times were prestigious, reliable and credible.

. All of this radar and accompanying Air Traffic Control data was recorded to UTC timestamping. These stations utilized primary radar return tracking with all times to the second. Also, an Air Traffic Controller replied to this investigation stating that a time-check is done daily by all stations to make sure that all radar tracking is precisely coordinated to UTC.

http://worldtradecentertruth.com/volume/200609/SeismicFurlong.doc

 

[defaultdotxbe]

i just thought of another question: why does furlong only use LDEOs seismic data? surely other seismometers picked up the events, brent blanchard says protec had several in manhattan, why not compare all data and times?

i suspect furlong simply found the one dataset with the largest time offset and decided to run with it

 

[LashL]

First of all, I lived at 227 Have Avenue in New York City a while back and that crappy apartment building had an elevator whose outer doors were just ... doors. Regular hinged outward-swinging doors. They were held shut by a magnet. When the elevator got to your floor, you opened the door, stepped in, shut the door and then the elevator moved with nothing between you and the moving wall.

I believe the WTC probably had more modern elevators than my apartment in Washington Heights.

Second, we are way the heck through the looking glass on this one. We're now relying on seismographic equipment 30 miles away to tell us what thousands of people actually witnessed? That's just nuts.

You are correct, of course. I have seen a weird old elevator with an outward opening door in the past, now that I think about it. However, that was most certainly not the case in the WTC towers.

BS1234 made the ludicrous claim that the WTC tower elevators were blown off non existent hinges by non existent explosive charges and he fails to acknowledge the numerous credible reports of witnesses who saw the fireballs and he fails to acknowledge the numerous credible reports of victims who died in elevators from those fireballs, I was just pointing out that, as usual, he fails to get even the most basic facts right. It is no wonder that he cannot get any of his ultimate conclusions right.

And yes, as is the case with every BS1234 thread, it is indeed through the looking glass.

 

[R.Mackey]

These are the relative quotes making the basis for his claim. I found no footnotes, links, quotes to substantiate the claims in (my) bolding. For all we know, he made it up. The word calibrate does not appear in the document.

I should have been more specific, I was referring to the seismographs. The uncertainty in the radar has been shown to be large enough that its timestamp is irrelevant. Having gone through that hash of a paper again, I can confidently say that there is no such statement for the seismographs.

I'd also like to know more about this alleged "Air Traffic Controller" who responded to their investigation. JohnDoeX, perhaps?

 

[DavidJames]

I should have been more specific, I was referring to the seismographs. The uncertainty in the radar has been shown to be large enough that its timestamp is irrelevant. Having gone through that hash of a paper again, I can confidently say that there is no such statement for the seismographs.

Yup, conspicuously absent, isn't it.

 

[DavidJames]

II'd also like to know more about this alleged "Air Traffic Controller" who responded to their investigation. JohnDoeX, perhaps?

Notice the "Air Traffic Controller" says a "time check", not terminology one would associate with clock synchronization. Sounds more like what I used to do with the old IBM 370's

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

The observations of an elevator blown off its hinges comes from Lt. Walsh.

Lt. Walsh- Answer: What else I observed in the lobby was that – there’s basically two areas of elevators. There’s elevators off to the left-hand side which are really the express elevators. That would be the elevators that’s facing north. Then on the right-hand side there’s also elevators that are express elevators, and that would be facing south. In the center of these two elevator shafts would be elevators that go to the lower floors. They were blown off the hinges. That’s where the service elevator was also.

Chief Congiusta- Question: Were these elevators that went to the upper floors? They weren’t side lobby elevators?

Answer: No, no, I’d say that they went through floors 30 and below.

Question: And they were blown off?

Answer: They were blown off the hinges, and you could see the shafts. The elevators on the extreme north side and the other express elevator on the extreme south side, they looked intact to me from what I could see, the doors anyway…….
…….So I headed for the B stairway. I did not want to deal with elevators. So Ladder 1—

Question: Were there any elevators working or no? Probably no, I assume.

Answer: I couldn’t tell about the express elevators. The elevators that I mentioned before that were on the extreme north end and the extreme south end, I don’t know about those elevators. But I headed for where the service elevator was, which was in the center where the lower floor elevators were, the ones where the doors were blown off them.

A blown out elevator, with or without hinges is evidence of some type of explosion. The fact that the blown out elevator went down to the basement, but did not go up to the impact area, is strong evidence that the explosion came from below.

Again, as with this entire paper, you anti-science guys are tossing out data simply because it conflicts with your hypothesis.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1234
The linked paper, does indeed show that both clocks are calibrated to UTC on a daily basis. Neither could possibly be off by anything more than a fraction of a second.

and Mackey taunted

Show us where in the paper it says that. What page, and quote the paragraph.

Or else you're lying again.

From the Ross/Furlong:

Also, an Air Traffic Controller replied to this investigation stating that a time-check is done daily by all stations to make sure that all radar tracking is precisely coordinated to UTC.

page 3

 

[Brainache]

The observations of an elevator blown off its hinges comes from Lt. Walsh.



A blown out elevator, with or without hinges is evidence of some type of explosion. The fact that the blown out elevator went down to the basement, but did not go up to the impact area, is strong evidence that the explosion came from below.

Again, as with this entire paper, you anti-science guys are tossing out data simply because it conflicts with your hypothesis.

You are aware aren't you that although the actual elevator cars only went to certain floors, the shafts themselves went all the way up the towers?
This has been pointed out before.