Siesmic Evidence Proves Inside Job?

[quicknthedead]

Wow, you dont even know how to interperet a simple X-Y graph. Not that its really relevant here, but I think its important to show how inept you are interpereting your own "evidence".

The position of the triangles correspond to the altitude of the return. Hint:the altitude is on the left, notice how the triangles match the circles up until the circles stop, then keep going? They are returning altitude after Mode C stops reporting. But how can that be? Let me back that up with some evidence(something you havent done yet).


http://www.911myths.com/Recorded_Radar_Data_Study--all_four_aircraft.pdf

Now then, will you be a man and admit your mistake here? Its a simple one that really doesnt hurt your precious paper.....I'm guessing no.



So, I take it you dont know the answer to the quiz I posted - if you were well researched about the source of your impact times, you'd know the answer.

Cool stuff, apathoid! I just catalogued this. I had run across information similar to this, but I have never seen this report. Thanks!

However, the 84th RADES provided the ASSUMED ALTITUDE dotted-line in the flight path study, and BTW, I provided this concept to you in my post #372 (it's in the link at the bottom, about the latitude-longitude-altitude method).

But the last primary return had nothing to do with altitude, because it was PSR.

And it WAS a return, with a time of 8:46:40!

Now what do you think that means?
It means no apology, and...

8:46:40 is good.
8:46:30 is good.

Thanks again,

Adios!

 

[ktesibios]

Page 9 of the FAA document Gravy referenced shows what appears to be an image of the radar reconstruction of the last part of AA11's ground track. While the black and white image is horribly difficult to read, the end of the trail is labeled "Last radar return, unknown altitude, ground speed (illegible) at 8:46:31 ET". The caption indicates that this data is from Newark airport's ASR-9 radar.

The Recorded Radar Data- all four aircraft document Apathoid referenced has this to say about Airport Surveillance Radar (ASR): "ASR radar normally records data approximately every 4 1/2 seconds".

Looking around for information on the ASR-9, I turned up a document on the usefulness of surveillance radar to weather monitoring, called "FAA SURVEILLANCE RADAR DATA AS A COMPLEMENT TO THE WSR-88D NETWORK " at http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~rfisher/Radar/WW-10147.pdf . It has this to say about the ASR-9 system: "The WSP provides full resolution reflectivity and velocity imagery out to the ASR-9’s instrumented range of 60 nmi; the images are updated every antenna sweep (4.8 seconds) out to 15 nmi where the wind shear detection algorithms operate."

I think that means that you can only tell if a contact is still there every 4.8 seconds; if it disappears on one particular sweep it could have gone down at any time between that sweep and the last time the antenna pointed in the same direction 4.8 seconds previously.

If so, there's an uncertainty of up to 4.8 seconds in the 8:46:31 time, that is, the plane could have crashed at any time between 8:46:26.2 and 8:46:31.

Add in the unknown uncertainty of the setting of Newark airport's clock and there seems to be enough slop in the measurements to bode rather ill for CT claims that depend on assumptions of one-second (or better) accuracy.

 

[MRC_Hans]

TS123½ kept chanting:

No. The basement explosives evidently went off 14 and 17 seconds before the planes hit.

Wrong. About 50 posts in this thread point out that this is not at all evident. TS, if you are to even pretend to be debating you need to stop ignoring the arguments of the other side.

Hans

 

[stateofgrace]

JREF Forum,..........................
Guys, what if you are wrong?

Imagine that for a second. You think I’m a CT’r, but I’m not. Keep labels out of this. We just want the truth, right? If I’m wrong, I will admit it. (Of course, if you are shills for the gov’t, I am wasting my time, but I still bear you no malice).

Just imagine, as a hypothetical, that “The Two Times Are Right”!

With that thought in your head, see if you can now answer the question: What caused the seismic reading at 8:46:30? (Go with God)

And what if you are wrong?

Will you apologies to those you wrongly accuse of mass murderer?
Will you admit your paper is fraudulent?
Will you denounce your movement?
Will you stop dancing on graves?
Will you finally stop these ridiculous conspiracies?
Will you stop doubting those who tries to help?
Will you stop twisting and distorting witness statements?
Will you finally allow everybody to move on from this dreadful event?
Will you stop stroking your own ego?
Will you openly admit to your naive teenage audience you are a fraud?
Will you allow the victims to rest in peace?
Will you condemn those that desecrate GZ with this rubbish?
Will you support the genuine questions that still need answers?
Will you condemn your movement for mocking the victim’s final words?
Will you call for your movement to leave the families of the victims alone?
Will you stop calling those who opposed you shills?
Will you stop calling those who opposed you suckers?
Will you stop pretending you are the savoir of humanity?

Will you just for the love of god,stop?

Hey just asking questions.

 

[uruk]

Maybe it was an Alien space craft hitting the ground at that very moment? That is just as plausible as your CD theory, is it not? I admit to not knowing the answer and it's not because I am not smart enough, but because I don't know all the facts and don't have all the evidence at hand. I am willing to bet you don't either.

IT WUZ ALEE-INS!!!!!
Looky here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5070226144647203934

It wuz them clingons from Uranus!!

 

[CurtC]

Guys, what if you are wrong?

Imagine that for a second. You think I’m a CT’r, but I’m not. Keep labels out of this. We just want the truth, right? If I’m wrong, I will admit it. (Of course, if you are shills for the gov’t, I am wasting my time, but I still bear you no malice).

Just imagine, as a hypothetical, that “The Two Times Are Right”!

With that thought in your head, see if you can now answer the question: What caused the seismic reading at 8:46:30?

R.Mackey, apathoid, and Gravy have a good handle on the technical issues with your paper, but I'll play along with your hypothetical. If you can indeed show that there was a major seismic event in the North Tower ten seconds before Flight 11 hit, then we have major problems that would have to be resolved.

There were a huge number of people around the tower who would have noticed, yet none of them did. Even Willie Rodriguez heard something from the basement a very short time before he heard the explosion from above, not ten seconds. And Willie is your only witness that supports anything like a pre-impact explosion. Unfortunately for you, his description of the events is completely compatible with the standard model, and inconsistent with your idea of a 8:46:30 explosion.

The other problem to be resolved is that there is only one seismic spike on that record, and Flight 11 surely would have registered a major spike. How could the explosion ten seconds before cause a very discernable spike, but the airliner impact not be there at all?

So even if you could somehow demonstrate this ten-second-before seismic event (which it's abundantly clear by now you can't), you still have giant problems trying to show that that could be an explosion ten seconds before.

And by the way, calling your interlocutors "government shills" just makes you sound stupid. You might want to remove that bit from your act.

 

[Brainache]

JREF Forum,
Guys, what if you are wrong?

Imagine that for a second. You think I’m a CT’r, but I’m not. Keep labels out of this. We just want the truth, right? If I’m wrong, I will admit it. (Of course, if you are shills for the gov’t, I am wasting my time, but I still bear you no malice).

Just imagine, as a hypothetical, that “The Two Times Are Right”!

With that thought in your head, see if you can now answer the question: What caused the seismic reading at 8:46:30?

Try it. You all seem scientifically bent.

One last thing...apathoid, if you can post that link about the radar I will look at it...but it must disprove AA Flt 11’s last primary radar contact at 8:46:40. Nothing else will suffice.

If it does, I will apologize to all of you, I'll pack up my tent, and I'll go home (on this whole issue).
And if I don’t see it posted over the next few days, well, I will understand.
Thanks for your time, guys.

Adios! (Go with God)

Umm well I guess it means these are the end times and the world is topsy turvy. Explosions are invisible to all but seismographs, planes hit buildings without causing shock waves and the Beast is loose in the world.

The whore of Babylon is doing her dance on the graves of the righteous.

The rapture is a commin to town and all the wretched sinners will burn in hell.

So I spose it's all OK then coz that's the way God planned it. Might as well go get a burger, rent a hooker and buy a bag of coke for kicks because noone's gonna save me now.

OTOH it might just be possible that a couple of clocks were slightly out of sync, so maybe I'll think twice about that burger.

 

[uruk]

Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1234
No. The basement explosives evidently went off 14 and 17 seconds before the planes hit.

This is also for you Quickandthedead.

Not according to the CT'rs chief wittness.

In William Rodrigues's own words in this video he states that he heard an "explosion" "one or two seconds before the plane impact:
http://www.911blogger.com/2005/10/wi...szymanski.html
Here's the link to the video itself from the above site:
http://www.archive.org/download/inn/...sept05snow.wmv


2 minutes and 13 seconds into the video Mr. Rodrigues says that there was an explosion "one or two seconds" before the airplane impact. It has been shown how sounds of the impact can be heard in the basement via the steel support structures before sounds from the impact arrive from the outside .
Some simple calculation found the times to be roughly 1.14 and 1.24 seconds.
This would seem to coincide with Mr. Rodrigues's statement. ( Here's the page where the times were worked out: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63740&page=7 )

Here's another video showing Mr. Rodriguez stating that the time between the two sounds is in a space of time of where he was going to verbalize a thought.:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8536008651248732897&q=william+rodriguez+wtc+explosions

Based on testimony from Mr. Rodriguez himself, the spikes on the siezmograph, which are 10 to 14 seconds before the WTC collapse, could not have been caused by the alleged "explosion in the basement" that was reported by Mr. Rodriguez.

 

[cloudshipsrule]

Alright. Say there was some seismic event before the impact of the planes.

Are you saying it was a bomb?

If so, what was the point of this event? Neither building fell until over an hour after the impact of the planes. What did this first explosion accomplish?

I'm sure all this has been said before, but.....If there was a bomb in the basement of either WTC, it did nothing. The buildings fell from the TOP down, not all at once, and not bottom to top. What did this elusive basement explosion accomplish exactly?

 

[R.Mackey]

As far as Mackey and his spikes, the two "impacts" reported by LDEO were considered spikes due to the small Richter reading. And yes, I will not respond to him any longer. As a matter of fact, you can all go back to your sedate life because I learned what I needed to know.

So if you won't respond to me any longer, that means you promise never to clear up the lies you've told.

Here's what you said:

You obfuscate and bring out nothing but smoke and mirrors, and you certainly avoid the question, R.Mackey. FYI, there were two spikes, and you clearly don't understand what LDEO and NIST did (you should have tried reading the paper).

And here's the data: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

Show me those double spikes. Or else, you lied.

And they're considered spikes because they are spikes. Check the spectral plots at right for the two events. They are spikes. They did not call them that solely because of the small magnitude. Another lie.

And that is: No one could answer the question. That's why I came here tonight. I needed to know if anyone could answer the question. I got answers of UFO’s, my imagination, “I told you your paper was crap” post-from-the past, primary radar returns give altitude, and on and on…but I never got anyone to really answer this simple question.

Guys, what if you are wrong?

Imagine that for a second. You think I’m a CT’r, but I’m not. Keep labels out of this. We just want the truth, right? If I’m wrong, I will admit it.

I answered your question, twice. I'll do it again. The seismic record shows the aircraft impact. There are no other events within 10 minutes of the impact, therefore that is what it is.

The same thing happens for the other tower.

It's very simple to understand.

You are wrong, you will not admit it, and that's still another lie.

If you're not a Conspiracy Theorist, then why do you lie, ignore criticisms and corrections, and blindly cling to your delusionary, absolutely unsupported hypothesis? What other explanation is there?

Since you're such a man of scripture, how do you feel about "bearing false witness?" That's what you're doing.

 

[juryjone]

These facts are so simple my 13 year-old grandson understands them.

This is what bothers me. Not only is this man delusional, but he forces his delusion on his impressionable grandson. A young man for whom Mr. Furlong bears some responsibility. And Mr. Furlong is teaching him that scientific endeavor consists of coming up with a hypothesis and repeating it ad nauseam while disregarding the facts. He's teaching his grandson that the cherry-picking of quotes is the proper way to get at the "truth" in an argument.

Let me ask you something, Mr. Furlong. You've mentioned your grandson, who seems to buy into your crap. What about your son/daughter? Is it that they refuse to talk to you on the subject, so you feel that your grandson is the proper receptacle for your lies? Does the rest of the family buy into your delusions, or just this one impressionable young man?

 

[Loss Leader]

Just imagine, as a hypothetical, that “The Two Times Are Right”!

I have imagined this. It would mean that after the last radar return for American Airlines 11, it veared off and failed to hit the World Trade Center while simultaniously becoming invisible to radar.

It would mean that you have given hope to the families of 11 crew and 76 passengers that were thought to have died that day. And it would mean that you have not degraded and defiled the memory of:

Anna Williams Allison, 48, Stoneham, Mass.
David Angell, 54, Pasadena, Calif.
Lynn Angell, 52, Pasadena, Calif.
Seima Aoyama
Barbara Arestegui, 38, Marstons Mills, Mass.
Myra Aronson, 52, Charlestown, Mass.
Christine Barbuto, 32, Brookline, Mass.
Carolyn Beug, 48, Los Angeles, Calif.
Kelly Booms, 24, Boston, Mass.
Carol Bouchard, 43, Warwick, R.I.
Neilie Anne Casey, 32, Wellesley, Mass.
Jeffrey Collman, 41, Novato, Calif.
Jeffrey Coombs, 42, Abington, Mass.
Tara Creamer, 30, Worcester, Mass.
Thelma Cuccinello, 71, Wilmot, N.H.
Patrick Currivan, 52, Winchester, Mass.
Brian P. Dale, 43, Warren, N.J.
David DiMeglio, Wakefield, Mass.
Donald Ditullio, 49, Peabody, Mass.
Albert Dominguez, 65, Sydney, Australia
Alex Filipov, 70, Concord, Mass.
Carol Flyzik, 40, Plaistow, N.H.
Paul Friedman, 45, Belmont, Mass.
Karleton D.B. Fyfe, 31, Brookline, Mass.
Peter Gay, 54, Tewksbury, Mass.
Linda George, 27, Westboro, Mass.
Edmund Glazer, 41, Los Angeles, Calif.
Lisa Fenn Gordenstein, 41, Needham, Mass.
Andrew Curry Green, 34, Los Angeles, Calif.
Paige Farley Hackel, 46, Newton, Mass.
Peter Hashem, 40, Tewksbury, Mass.
Robert Hayes, 37, Amesbury, Mass.
Ted Hennessy, 35, Belmont, Mass.
John Hofer, 45, Bellflower, Calif.
John Hofer, 45, Bellflower, Calif.
Nicholas Humber, 60, Newton, Mass.
John C. Jenkins, 45, Cambridge, Mass.
Charles Jones, 48, Bedford, Mass.
Robin Kaplan, 33, Westboro, Mass.
Barbara Keating, 72, Palm Springs, Calif.
David Kovalcin, 42, Hudson, N.H.
Judy Larocque, 50, Framingham, Mass.
Natalie Janis Lasden, 46, Peabody, Mass.
Daniel John Lee, 34, Los Angeles, Calif.
Daniel C. Lewin, 31, Brookline, Mass.
Sara Low, 28, Batesville, Ark.
Susan MacKay, 44, Westford, Mass.
Karen Martin, 40, Danvers, Mass.
Thomas McGuinness, 42, Portsmouth, N.H.
Christopher D. Mello, 25, Boston, Mass.
Jeff Mladenik, 43, Hinsdale, Ill.
Antonio Montoya, 46, East Boston, Mass.
Carlos Montoya
Laura Lee Morabito, 34, Framingham, Mass.
Mildred Naiman, Andover, Mass.
Laurie Neira
Renee Newell, 37, Cranston, R.I.
Kathleen Nicosia
Jacqueline Norton, 60, Lubec, Maine
Robert Norton, 82, Lubec, Maine
John Ogonowski, 52, Dracut, Mass.
Betty Ong, 45, Andover, Mass.
Jane Orth, 49, Haverhill, Mass.
Thomas Pecorelli, 31, Los Angeles, Calif.
Berry Berenson Perkins, 53, Wellfleet, Mass.
Sonia Morales Puopolo, 58, Dover, Mass.
David Retik, Needham, Mass.
Jean Roger, 24, Longmeadow, Mass.
Philip Rosenzweig, Acton, Mass.
Richard Ross, 58, Newton, Mass.
Jessica Sachs, 22, Billerica, Mass.
Rahma Salie, 28, Boston, Mass.
Heather Smith, 30, Boston, Mass.
Dianne Snyder, 42, Westport, Mass.
Douglas Stone, 54, Dover, N.H.
Xavier Suarez
Madeline Sweeney, 35, Acton, Mass.
Michael Theodoridis, 32, Boston, Mass.
James Trentini, 65, Everett, Mass.
Mary Trentini, 67, Everett, Mass.
Pendyala Vamsikrishna, 30, Los Angeles, Calif.
Mary Wahlstrom, 75, Kaysville, Utah
Kenneth Waldie, 46, Methuen, Mass.
John Wenckus, 46, Torrance, Calif.
Candace Lee Williams, 20, Danbury, Conn.
Christopher Zarba, 47, Hopkinton, Mass.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Referring to Flight 11

The aircraft impacted the North Tower at approximately 8:46:40 (point I)

[bolding mine]
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc01.pdf

The 9/11 Commission report, section 1, footnote 39 indicates that they are referencing the above document when they cite 8:46:40 as the time of impact in their report.

Last aircraft to ground communication was a 8:33:59 EDT (12:33:59 PM GMT). http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc05.pdf

Seismographic readings from Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University show impact time of 08:46:26.0 EDT + 16.95 seconds => 8:46:42.95 EDT http://www.popularmechanics.com/con... target="_new">www.ldeo.columbia.edu/lcsn</a>

As ktesibios showed in this post, the margin of error for the radar sweep was 8:46:31 +/- 4.8 seconds. This is consistent with the Commission's approximated time and LDEO's recorded seismic event.

Now, what is the issue?

 

[R.Mackey]

Referring to Flight 11 Seismographic readings from Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University show impact time of 08:46:26.0 EDT + 16.95 seconds => 8:46:42.95 EDT http://www.popularmechanics.com/con... target="_new">www.ldeo.columbia.edu/lcsn</a>

Once again, nice work, and thank you.

Looking at your plots for the seismographic traces -- do you mean that all this time, Ross and Furlong were looking at the time tag at the start of the sample... and not the time tag at the start of the event? Is that where the offset comes from?

If this is so, this is even more pathetic than I imagined possible.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Once again, nice work, and thank you.

Looking at your plots for the seismographic traces -- do you mean that all this time, Ross and Furlong were looking at the time tag at the start of the sample... and not the time tag at the start of the event? Is that where the offset comes from?

If this is so, this is even more pathetic than I imagined possible.

Yep, horizontal axis runs from 0-40 seconds with a start time of 08:46:26.0 EDT and the reading marked at +16.95 seconds on the graph.

 

[quicknthedead]

R.Mackey, apathoid, and Gravy have a good handle on the technical issues with your paper, but I'll play along with your hypothetical. If you can indeed show that there was a major seismic event in the North Tower ten seconds before Flight 11 hit, then we have major problems that would have to be resolved.

There were a huge number of people around the tower who would have noticed, yet none of them did. Even Willie Rodriguez heard something from the basement a very short time before he heard the explosion from above, not ten seconds. And Willie is your only witness that supports anything like a pre-impact explosion. Unfortunately for you, his description of the events is completely compatible with the standard model, and inconsistent with your idea of a 8:46:30 explosion.

The other problem to be resolved is that there is only one seismic spike on that record, and Flight 11 surely would have registered a major spike. How could the explosion ten seconds before cause a very discernable spike, but the airliner impact not be there at all?

So even if you could somehow demonstrate this ten-second-before seismic event (which it's abundantly clear by now you can't), you still have giant problems trying to show that that could be an explosion ten seconds before.

And by the way, calling your interlocutors "government shills" just makes you sound stupid. You might want to remove that bit from your act.

Here's your order for accounts of explosions. Are all you shills happy now?

I didn't think so! (You all are so plastic.)

LOL

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060118104223192
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/06/08/21/ward.htm

Understanding is a fountain of life to one who has it,
But the discipline of fools is folly.

Proverbs 16:22

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Here's your order for accounts of explosions. Are all you shills happy now?

I didn't think so! (You all are so plastic.)

LOL

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060118104223192
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/06/08/21/ward.htm

Understanding is a fountain of life to one who has it,
But the discipline of fools is folly.

Proverbs 16:22

both articles seem to rely on the same 3-4 quotes likening the collapse to a controlled demolition (CTers never learned what a simile is apparently) but none of them state any explosions were before the plane hit

you should be happy i even read the second one with the title "Bombs in the WTC Buildings Proves Nothing to Racist-Fascist Bigots" i almost didnt

 

[Dog Town]

Understanding is a fountain of life to one who has it,
But the discipline of fools is folly.

Don't like you atall,... but I feel embarrassed for ya! O' the irony...

 

[Gravy]

Here's your order for accounts of explosions. Are all you shills happy now?

I didn't think so! (You all are so plastic.)

We are not shills, and we are not happy with your stupidity. I asked for a witness who claims there was a massive explosion that corresponds to your claim.

Of the thousands of people who were right there, you have been unable to provide a single account of this huge explosion. Why do you think that is, quick? Are you going to claim mass amnesia now? C'mon, quick, what's your excuse?

Okay, I'll make it easier for you: how about an alarm that went off, an emergency call made, a mechanical systems malfunction? Nada? Zilch? What's your excuse?

And why didn't you use this graph in your ridiculous paper? It's from the same site where you got your other information. Could it be because it proves there was no second impact from flight 11? What's your excuse?

​

 

[stateofgrace]

Here's your order for accounts of explosions. Are all you shills happy now?

Understanding is a fountain of life to one who has it,
But the discipline of fools is folly.

Proverbs 16:22

Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you.
Groucho Marx