Shutdown 2023

[Solitaire]

So now the centrists are the Enemy. Nice.

Anything but Hard Left orthodoxy is rapidly
becoming doubleplus ungood crime think on this site.

Well, I think they mean a different thing. Maybe a political map would help.

The centrist on the political scale occupies a position around five.
But the Centrist they talk about occupies a position between the parties,
say around seven. Neolibs probably occupy a position around six.
AOC probably around a three, I guess.

 

[Cat Not Included]

What, exactly, would you have a country that's presently fighting for it's very existence, do for the U.S. at this time?

Rare for me to agree with Hercules56 here, but I get what he's saying. Look at it this way; if I say I'll give you $10 a week to mow my yard, and you mow my yard and then I don't give you $10 that week, I've betrayed you; I let down my end of the deal. If I give you $10 a week for a week for a few weeks because I think you deserve it and then one week I don't give you $10...well...you might rather have the $10 and you might deserve the $10, but you can't say you were "betrayed" because you had no reason to expect the $10 a week in the first place, and we didn't have an exchange for you to get it.

I think - and I think Hercules56 does to - that the US absolutely SHOULD continue to support Ukraine and I really hope the Republicans don't block us from giving more funding. But it doesn't really make sense to describe it as a "betrayal" if we don't. Horrible as it is, a minority but large group of the US is on Russia's side, and that minority wields disproportionate political power.

 

[Hercules56]

I guess back in 1941, this guy would ask what was Britian doing for the US?

Britain has been a committed Ally to the United States for almost 100 years before world war II.

We have fought together, they have aided us, etc etc. What has Ukraine ever done for the USA?

I'm not saying we should not help them defend themselves against Russia's aggression. But you can only betray someone when there is a relationship of mutual benefit, and honestly they haven't really done anything for us. Just saying.

But again yes we should give them weapons and other aid, and if Russia uses weapons of mass destruction upon them we should fight against Russia on Ukraine side.

 

[acbytesla]

Rare for me to agree with Hercules56 here, but I get what he's saying. Look at it this way; if I say I'll give you $10 a week to mow my yard, and you mow my yard and then I don't give you $10 that week, I've betrayed you; I let down my end of the deal. If I give you $10 a week for a week for a few weeks because I think you deserve it and then one week I don't give you $10...well...you might rather have the $10 and you might deserve the $10, but you can't say you were "betrayed" because you had no reason to expect the $10 a week in the first place, and we didn't have an exchange for you to get it.

I think - and I think Hercules56 does to - that the US absolutely SHOULD continue to support Ukraine and I really hope the Republicans don't block us from giving more funding. But it doesn't really make sense to describe it as a "betrayal" if we don't. Horrible as it is, a minority but large group of the US is on Russia's side, and that minority wields disproportionate political power.

That's a terrible analogy. This is a war where people are dying. They are counting on you in a way the lawn boy isn't.

 

[Hercules56]

That's a terrible analogy. This is a war where people are dying. They are counting on you in a way the lawn boy isn't.

Like I have said before I fully support us getting Ukraine aid to fight against Russians.

However, I would really feel a lot more comfortable helping them if they would get rid of their damn obsession with honoring veterans and dead from their damn Galicia SS unit, which killed who knows how many tens of thousands of innocent people under the direction of the Nazis.

 

[acbytesla]

Britain has been a committed Ally to the United States for almost 100 years before world war II.
We have fought together, they have aided us, etc etc. What has Ukraine ever done for the USA?

Where did you get that? We didn’t fight alongside Great Britain until WW1. And we didn’t enter that war until Germany started sinking merchant and passenger ships. There was huge resistance to enter WW2. The US didn’t enter WW2 until Germany's ally Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor.

I'm not saying we should not help them defend themselves against Russia's aggression. But you can only betray someone when there is a relationship of mutual benefit, and honestly they haven't really done anything for us. Just saying.

I don't care. America should learn the lesson of Great Britain and Poland/ Czechoslovakia. Appeasing a bully is always a mistake.

But again yes we should give them weapons and other aid, and if Russia uses weapons of mass destruction upon them we should fight against Russia on Ukraine side.

I think we should do everything in our power to make sure Ukraine wins this war. Provide as much military assistance that is required outside of sending US soldiers in. The US wasted far more money not to mention troops in Afghanistan. And its strategic value is at best negligible compared to what's happening in Ukraine.

 

[Hercules56]

Where did you get that? We didn’t fight alongside Great Britain until WW1. And we didn’t enter that war until Germany started sinking merchant and passenger ships. There was huge resistance to enter WW2. The US didn’t enter WW2 until Germany's ally Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor.


I don't care. America should learn the lesson of Great Britain and Poland/ Czechoslovakia. Appeasing a bully is always a mistake.


I think we should do everything in our power to make sure Ukraine wins this war. Provide as much military assistance that is required outside of sending US soldiers in. The US wasted far more money not to mention troops in Afghanistan. And its strategic value is at best negligible compared to what's happening in Ukraine.

The USA was helping the Allies against Germany & Japan long before D-Day. Read a history book.

 

[acbytesla]

The USA was helping the Allies against Germany & Japan long before D-Day. Read a history book.

Very funny. I know.

But we weren’t "fighting alongside them."

There was the Lend Lease program where we sold them arms for them paying us back after the war.

But Americans were dead set against joining the War. FDR, however wanted the US to enter the war. There are conspiracy theories that we knew we would be attacked at Pearl Harbor and FDR did nothing to stop it.

 

[Hercules56]

McCarthy was defiant after the vote, daring his detractors to try to push him out as he argued he did what was needed to govern effectively.

“If somebody wants to make a motion against me, bring it,” McCarthy told CNN’s Manu Raju at a press conference. “There has to be an adult in the room. I am going to govern with what’s best for this country.”

Huh...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/30/politics/us-government-shutdown-latest/index.html



Maybe McCarthy is a more responsible politician than I thought. The CR doesn't cut social spending at all, has no funding for any border security stuff, does not defund the department of Justice or any Trump investigations. Clearly he will now be enemy number One for MAGA, but he did what needed to be done to keep the govt open.

I do give him kudos for that.

 

[acbytesla]

McCarthy was defiant after the vote, daring his detractors to try to push him out as he argued he did what was needed to govern effectively.

“If somebody wants to make a motion against me, bring it,” McCarthy told CNN’s Manu Raju at a press conference. “There has to be an adult in the room. I am going to govern with what’s best for this country.”

Huh...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/30/politics/us-government-shutdown-latest/index.html



Maybe McCarthy is a more responsible politician than I thought. The CR doesn't cut social spending at all, has no funding for any border security stuff, does not defund the department of Justice or any Trump investigations. Clearly he will now be enemy number One for MAGA, but he did what needed to be done to keep the govt open.

I do give him kudos for that.

His mistake has always been kowtowing to the crazies in his party.

 

[acbytesla]

The Senate passed the CR. No shutdown.

88 yay 9 nay.

 

[Hercules56]

The Senate passed the CR. No shutdown.

88 yay 9 nay.

No cuts in social spending.

No funding for anything related to The border.

No cuts to the justice department or any Trump cases.

This only passed due to massive Democrat support.

This is a huge win for the Democrats and a massive fail for McCarthy the GOP and MAGA.

Basically the message is, the government cannot function with the Republicans in control of the House, without massive help from the Democrats and abandoning most right wing agendas.

Love it!!!!

 

[acbytesla]

No cuts in social spending.

No funding for anything related to The border.

No cuts to the justice department or any Trump cases.

This only passed due to massive Democrat support.

This is a huge win for the Democrats and a massive fail for McCarthy the GOP and MAGA.

Basically the message is, the government cannot function with the Republicans in control of the House, without massive help from the Democrats and abandoning most right wing agendas.

Love it!!!!

Look at that vote again. Only 9 Senators voted against the CR. That means around 40 Republican Senators voted for the CR.

That sends a signal to House Republicans. Get it together.

 

[Hercules56]

Look at that vote again. Only 9 Senators voted against the CR. That means around 40 Republican Senators voted for the CR.

That sends a signal to House Republicans. Get it together.

Agreed.

 

[dirtywick]

have to imagine a lot of the GOP is sick of the wingnuts gumming everything up constantly

 

[Hercules56]

have to imagine a lot of the GOP is sick of the wingnuts gumming everything up constantly

The MAGA people were elected to cut spending, enforce the border, defund the justice department, cut immigration, ban abortion.

They have not accomplished any of this. Will these people be reelected? Only if the voters who put them in think their attempts are good enough.

 

[dudalb]

ANd we all know we will be in shutdown crisis mode 45 days from now.

 

[acbytesla]

ANd we all know we will be in shutdown crisis mode 45 days from now.

I'm not so sure. This doesn't look good for the GOP. I think the nutsos will try again but going into next year's election? I think saner voices will prevail.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The MAGA people were elected to cut spending, enforce the border, defund the justice department, cut immigration, ban abortion.

I don't think they were. I think they were elected to scream and throw toddleresque tantrums. They're there to disrupt, ruin, and coat in feces anything and everything. That's what their voters really want: to hurt Daddy Government and Mommy America for not loving them enough! Waaaaaaah!

Though I may be giving their intelligence too much credit.

 

[Hercules56]

I don't think they were. I think they were elected to scream and throw toddleresque tantrums. They're there to disrupt, ruin, and coat in feces anything and everything. That's what their voters really want: to hurt Daddy Government and Mommy America for not loving them enough! Waaaaaaah!

Though I may be giving their intelligence too much credit.

Yes they may have been elected for the sole purpose of yelling and screaming. And if that is the case they will be reelected, and may be joined by more people just like them.