Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

[anglolawyer]

From the Guardian, sorry I don't have a link:

But Grant and Booth said the discharge was far from certain, pointing out that the NPA achieved convictions in 88% of higher court cases. Section 174 discharge applications were made regularly in criminal cases, Grant said. “In fact, there are very few cases in which they are not done.”
Booth said: “Courts are generally reluctant to grant these applications. Even when the prosecution evidence is of a very poor quality, many judges would rather say, ‘Let’s just hear the defence anyway.’”

In this respect their system is different to ours. Submissions of no case are made pretty rarely here.

 

[Samson]

From the Guardian, sorry I don't have a link:

But Grant and Booth said the discharge was far from certain, pointing out that the NPA achieved convictions in 88% of higher court cases. Section 174 discharge applications were made regularly in criminal cases, Grant said. “In fact, there are very few cases in which they are not done.”
Booth said: “Courts are generally reluctant to grant these applications. Even when the prosecution evidence is of a very poor quality, many judges would rather say, ‘Let’s just hear the defence anyway.’”
land?
In this respect their system is different to ours. Submissions of no case are made pretty rarely here.

How does 88% compare with England?
12% is a tricky place to start from, but by no means a forlorn hope.

 

[anglolawyer]

How does 88% compare with England?
12% is a tricky place to start from, but by no means a forlorn hope.

I suspect most of the convictions are guilty pleas, like here. I would not place to much weight on this. I believe SA has a fine legal tradition. The endemic crime and corruption seem to be elsewhere. It's not like Italy.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

From the Guardian, sorry I don't have a link:

But Grant and Booth said the discharge was far from certain, pointing out that the NPA achieved convictions in 88% of higher court cases. Section 174 discharge applications were made regularly in criminal cases, Grant said. “In fact, there are very few cases in which they are not done.”
Booth said: “Courts are generally reluctant to grant these applications. Even when the prosecution evidence is of a very poor quality, many judges would rather say, ‘Let’s just hear the defence anyway.’”

In this respect their system is different to ours. Submissions of no case are made pretty rarely here.

Whereas in the States they are almost always made so I understand.

Yes, here they are seldom made, the barristers generally follow the code, which is not to make unfounded submissions and the test for no case to answer is pretty high ( or low if you know what I mean). Judges keep a stricter timetable of their cases I think.

I read Section 174 and the test seems equally tough. It can be discharged if the court believes there is no evidence the accused committed the offence.

Reading the case law, it also seems to be discretionary which seems odd. The judge finds there is no evidence but goes ahead anyway.

 

[anglolawyer]

Whereas in the States they are almost always made so I understand.

Yes, here they are seldom made, the barristers generally follow the code, which is not to make unfounded submissions and the test for no case to answer is pretty high ( or low if you know what I mean). Judges keep a stricter timetable of their cases I think.

I read Section 174 and the test seems equally tough. It can be discharged if the court believes there is no evidence the accused committed the offence.

Reading the case law, it also seems to be discretionary which seems odd. The judge finds there is no evidence but goes ahead anyway.

Yes, that does seem odd. I expect it means the judge can throw a case out even if the threshold isn't met.

I think the test of 'no case' here is that no reasonable jury could convict on the prosecution case. Whether it's not often made because our barristers are too proper, I doubt. Those guys are supreme tacticians and they probably perceive a downside to making a hopeless or dodgy application. I can ask if you really want to know.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

I suspect most of the convictions are guilty pleas, like here. I would not place to much weight on this. I believe SA has a fine legal tradition. The endemic crime and corruption seem to be elsewhere. It's not like Italy.

I also wonder how many of these guilty pleas are plea bargains.

Lots is made of Tongo et el making plea bargains to save their skin, but in a system that encourages and uses plea bargains on a regular basis is it as strong a point as it's made out to be? Hopefully the judges comments on the section 174 will give us a clue (either way).

 

[anglolawyer]

I also wonder how many of these guilty pleas are plea bargains.

Lots is made of Tongo et el making plea bargains to save their skin, but in a system that encourages and uses plea bargains on a regular basis is it as strong a point as it's made out to be? Hopefully the judges comments on the section 174 will give us a clue (either way).

Ah, but does she give reasons or simply reject the application? I don't know the answer in our own system. I suspect no reasons are given because the trial is halfway through and reasons might taint the remainder if the application is rejected, but I don;t know.

I don't really get your plea bargain point.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Yes, that does seem odd. I expect it means the judge can throw a case out even if the threshold isn't met.

I think the test of 'no case' here is that no reasonable jury could convict on the prosecution case. Whether it's not often made because our barristers are too proper, I doubt. Those guys are supreme tacticians and they probably perceive a downside to making a hopeless or dodgy application. I can ask if you really want to know.

Getting shouted at by a judge irritated by the tactic is not the way to go. Also, the judge never makes the final decision so unless you could hope that the jury somehow hear about the application it seems pointless (apart from grandstanding in front of a certain type of client)

I've made a few myself, many years ago in my criminal past, but only in front of the magistrates. It was a way to tell them that you thought the case was crap, but in reality it narked enough of them off that I only did them when I genuinely thought I was in with a shout.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Ah, but does she give reasons or simply reject the application? I don't know the answer in our own system. I suspect no reasons are given because the trial is halfway through and reasons might taint the remainder if the application is rejected, but I don;t know.

I don't really get your plea bargain point.

you are probably right about the reasons. The judge in the Mngeni trial didn't give his reasons after the voir dire until his final judgment.

My point about the plea bargains is that this is how the SA system works, it seems almost automatic to use plea bargains. I wonder how often criminals are offered plea bargains. I've read quite a few cases while researching this where people are sentenced for far less than the statute says they should be. I'm just wondering whether a judge in SA would not treat the plea bargain as harshly (as in well that's why they said that isn't it!) as those outside that particular system.

 

[anglolawyer]

Getting shouted at by a judge irritated by the tactic is not the way to go. Also, the judge never makes the final decision so unless you could hope that the jury somehow hear about the application it seems pointless (apart from grandstanding in front of a certain type of client)

I've made a few myself, many years ago in my criminal past, but only in front of the magistrates. It was a way to tell them that you thought the case was crap, but in reality it narked enough of them off that I only did them when I genuinely thought I was in with a shout.

Are you a barrister Suffolk, or a solicitor like myself? I also have a background in criminal advocacy in the mags, from many moons ago. Thanks goodness those days are over! If you are in Suffolk I doubt we have ever crossed swords.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Are you a barrister Suffolk, or a solicitor like myself? I also have a background in criminal advocacy in the mags, from many moons ago. Thanks goodness those days are over! If you are in Suffolk I doubt we have ever crossed swords.

Barrister. Yes, I too hotfooted it out of crime as soon as I was able. Clients who you can smell coming up the street are not for me.

 

[anglolawyer]

Barrister. Yes, I too hotfooted it out of crime as soon as I was able. Clients who you can smell coming up the street are not for me.

We must start a thread on the desperate times which have befallen those of our learned friends unlucky enough to have remained in crime. Many solicitors specialising in criminal law are going bust (or even more bust than they already were) and I hear the barristers are reduced to licking moisture from the walls and eating grass. It's pretty outrageous IMO. Oh well, back to business here I suppose!

 

[Samson]

Selene Nelson solves the case

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/amanda-knox-trial-and-us-pr-power/850269/

 

[anglolawyer]

Selene Nelson solves the case

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/amanda-knox-trial-and-us-pr-power/850269/

'Why did he refuse to go to an ID parade of his “beloved” wife’s murderers? Why was he happy to sell his private wedding videos (“Copyright Max Clifford Associates”), yet refuse to release his text messages from the night of the murder?'

Sorry, what?

 

[Information Analyst]

Selene Nelson solves the case

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/amanda-knox-trial-and-us-pr-power/850269/

So the basic idea is that Dewani must be guilty because he hired a publicist and PR is a Bad Thing™....

 

[Samson]

Selene is one heavy hitter.

Selene Nelson
Content Executive
Selene joined Jellyfish in November 2013 as part of the Content and Outreach team, creating content to promote brands, products and services. Since graduating from the University of Sussex in 2009 with an English degree, Selene worked as a copywriter for an experience gift website and an editor for a publishing company before joining the Jellyfish team.

In her free time Selene enjoys reading, writing, cooking, eating cheesy pasta, trips to the countryside and watching funny videos of cats.

 

[anglolawyer]

Selene is one heavy hitter.

Selene Nelson
Content Executive
Selene joined Jellyfish in November 2013 as part of the Content and Outreach team, creating content to promote brands, products and services. Since graduating from the University of Sussex in 2009 with an English degree, Selene worked as a copywriter for an experience gift website and an editor for a publishing company before joining the Jellyfish team.

In her free time Selene enjoys reading, writing, cooking, eating cheesy pasta, trips to the countryside and watching funny videos of cats.

I entirely agree with her that disseminating stupid lies in the lead up to a trial is a very silly thing to be doing. 'No comment' is all that should emerge from the defendant's mouth or those of his so-called friends. I just didn't get the bit about an ID parade. You don't suppose this is a case of mistaken identity do you?

 

[Kaosium]

So the basic idea is that Dewani must be guilty because he hired a publicist and PR is a BAd Thing™....

I guess so. Being as I know her comments on that other case are nonsense peddled by a group of dingbats who've spent up to seven years running a guilt campaign etherwide and she doesn't realize that's a 'PR campaign' too I'm inclined to suspect the 'Justice for Anni' campaign got ahold of her too and she just believed everything they said. Or she just assumed that because Max Clifford has said he lied before that only guilty people hire him. Whatever. She was easily duped on the other one it doesn't surprise me it happened again.

Think for yourself Ms. Nelson, actually learn something about the subjects you write on rather than pick a side off based on bogus assumptions like that. The other case was a grassroots campaign that started on facebook and other social networking, whatever Gogerty Marriott did years ago was limited. I posted on that case for four years and not once came across anyone from them, but I did meet the people on facebook and joined the grassroots board that went on to other potential and actual miscarriages of justice to oppose some of these hate-mongering guilt campaigns that just nauseate me.

Ms. Nelson, you have met the enemy and it is you.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Well, that was an interesting article.

I was merrily reading it and agreeing with every word until she got on to Knox.

Anglo, the ID parade is true. Dewani was asked to go back for an ID parade, the SA police said at the time they expected him to return for one, but he refused as too ill/couldn't recognise them anyway/thought it was just a ruse to get him there so they could arrest him and throw him in the slammer. Which I guess it might have been considering Dewani said in his first statement that he would not be able to recognise them.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well, that was an interesting article.

I was merrily reading it and agreeing with every word until she got on to Knox.

Anglo, the ID parade is true. Dewani was asked to go back for an ID parade, the SA police said at the time they expected him to return for one, but he refused as too ill/couldn't recognise them anyway/thought it was just a ruse to get him there so they could arrest him and throw him in the slammer. Which I guess it might have been considering Dewani said in his first statement that he would not be able to recognise them.

Oh sorry, I thought they wanted him to stand in an ID parade. Duh.