Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

[Charlie Wilkes]

I have come to see the world differently in recent years.
A simple test when a lurid narrative is proposed where there is a plausible commonplace alternative is to look for a smoking gun which can not be explained any other way. In the absence of this it is safe to quickly assume the voyeurs are to be denied their feed.
I put Pistorius in this category too, who immediately provided a version which appears to survive scrutiny.
Knox wrote a detailed account two days after the Kercher killing that is completely consistent with all later discovered facts, which of course many know perfectly well.

In fact, it would be remiss of critical thinkers not to notice that Pistorius and Dewani both had the means to alter their personal circumstances by other means than to with almost certainty, destroy the balance of their lives, and both men can point to a lawless and fearful society to account for where they have arrived.
Chamberlain, with great simplicity, said a dingo took my baby, and thirty years later her version is official.

I agree totally that to discuss cases in isolation is to risk repeating the mistakes of history.

The comparison that occurs to me is with Claus von Bulow. The accusation against him rested entirely on its premise rather than credible evidence. It could be true, or at least, it's not quite impossible for it to be true. Many insist it is true. But no one can ever say there is proof, and those who insist it is true must overlook a more likely explanation.

 

[anglolawyer]

There is a perfectly plausible theory that explains everything in this case: the two robbers unexpectedly decided to add rape to the hijack but Anni resisted and got shot. Charlie, his double life as a secret user of male prostitutes provides a sufficient motive. That is not enough but it isn't nothing.

It is ridiculous to argue that other comparable cases should be considered off topic. That would rule out the case we discussed a few pages back of the Asian homosexual who murdered his wife in order to protect his secret. Obviously, it is not necessary to delve into them too deeply but to rule them all offside is absurd.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

There is a perfectly plausible theory that explains everything in this case: the two robbers unexpectedly decided to add rape to the hijack but Anni resisted and got shot. Charlie, his double life as a secret user of male prostitutes provides a sufficient motive. That is not enough but it isn't nothing.

I think we agree. That's why I mentioned von Bulow. He stood to gain financially from the death of his wife, provided he could make it look like an accident or suicide. That has been the motive of countless murdering husbands, so it certainly is not nothing. But a believable premise should not, in and of itself, be enough for a conviction.

 

[Samson]

There is a perfectly plausible theory that explains everything in this case: the two robbers unexpectedly decided to add rape to the hijack but Anni resisted and got shot. Charlie, his double life as a secret user of male prostitutes provides a sufficient motive. That is not enough but it isn't nothing.

It is ridiculous to argue that other comparable cases should be considered off topic. That would rule out the case we discussed a few pages back of the Asian homosexual who murdered his wife in order to protect his secret. Obviously, it is not necessary to delve into them too deeply but to rule them all offside is absurd.

Is there one or more key piece of evidence that requires massive contortions for Dewani to explain away, and ideally a good link to a case overview?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Is there one or more key piece of evidence that requires massive contortions for Dewani to explain away, and ideally a good link to a case overview?

There's no real evidence other than the testimony of these guys who definitely were in contact with each other to orchestrate the carjacking. Some of what Dewani did, e.g., exchanging currency, could be construed as dovetailing with their story, but it could just as well be the innocent behavior of a tourist who trusted the wrong guy.

As I said, the case hinges entirely on the premise... some will embrace it, but there's no proof.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think we agree. That's why I mentioned von Bulow. He stood to gain financially from the death of his wife, provided he could make it look like an accident or suicide. That has been the motive of countless murdering husbands, so it certainly is not nothing. But a believable premise should not, in and of itself, be enough for a conviction.

Is there one or more key piece of evidence that requires massive contortions for Dewani to explain away, and ideally a good link to a case overview?

I read in the Guardian the R15,000 was indeed the price of the helicopter flight he says he was secretly arranging as a surprise for Anni. That makes sense. It makes no sense whatever in Tongo's version in which the much more valuable jewellery is ignored, there isn't enough cash to go round, Tongo and Mblombo don't seem to mind not getting paid and Tongo is deprived of his livelihood.

The key piece of evidence might have been the mythical text messages that seem to have disappeared from the case or maybe the money in the envelope.

In the Daily Mail account the video played in court said a bruise on her thigh was visible. Nothing about her skirt being raised or knickers down, as reported by the mystery witness some time back. So that myth has gone.

 

[Samson]

There's no real evidence other than the testimony of these guys who definitely were in contact with each other to orchestrate the carjacking. Some of what Dewani did, e.g., exchanging currency, could be construed as dovetailing with their story, but it could just as well be the innocent behavior of a tourist who trusted the wrong guy.

As I said, the case hinges entirely on the premise... some will embrace it, but there's no proof.

I have no wish to "derail threads".
That said, I will drag in Amanda Knox to illustrate functional parallels.
Amanda Knox is supposed to have orchestrated a killing she fully expected to get away with.
Shrien Dewani is supposed to have orchestrated a killing he fully expected to get away with.
Amanda Knox was a fully functional human being who had sufficient financial resources to lead a life unstressed by matters that truly do preoccupy a great percentage of the human race.
Shrien Dewani was a fully functional human being who had sufficient financial resources to lead a life unstressed by matters that truly do preoccupy a great percentage of the human race.
Amanda Knox had a full and complete 1 minute to persuade Raffaele Sollecito to abandon Naruto and help kill her roommate, and even then her room mate by any medical measure was some time dead.
Shrien Dewani had a short time in a country where he was a fish out of water to conspire with a disparate mob to execute the perfect murder.

I could and will go on, but certainly not to annoy long standing forum members.

 

[anglolawyer]

I have no wish to "derail threads".
That said, I will drag in Amanda Knox to illustrate functional parallels.
Amanda Knox is supposed to have orchestrated a killing she fully expected to get away with.
Shrien Dewani is supposed to have orchestrated a killing he fully expected to get away with.
Amanda Knox was a fully functional human being who had sufficient financial resources to lead a life unstressed by matters that truly do preoccupy a great percentage of the human race.
Shrien Dewani was a fully functional human being who had sufficient financial resources to lead a life unstressed by matters that truly do preoccupy a great percentage of the human race.
Amanda Knox had a full and complete 1 minute to persuade Raffaele Sollecito to abandon Naruto and help kill her roommate, and even then her room mate by any medical measure was some time dead.
Shrien Dewani had a short time in a country where he was a fish out of water to conspire with a disparate mob to execute the perfect murder.

I could and will go on, but certainly not to annoy long standing forum members.

I don't find these particular comparisons illuminating TBH. That is not to say I don't share your view and CW's that comparable cases are relevant to the discussion.

 

[Samson]

I don't find these particular comparisons illuminating TBH. That is not to say I don't share your view and CW's that comparable cases are relevant to the discussion.

Maybe I need to be more specific.

These two cases involve people on trial where they are variously accused of premeditation or spontaneous escalation.

Amanda Knox was cool before and cool after, yet could not possibly expect, with her domestic profile, to have the street wisdom to carry this off.
I would say the precise same for Dewani.

Surely everyone can see that the notion of eliminating someone close to you without ending up in jail is a forlorn hope.

 

[Samson]

And importantly, premeditation will guarantee a misstep. As John Cleese says, this is all too silly.

 

[anglolawyer]

Maybe I need to be more specific.

These two cases involve people on trial where they are variously accused of premeditation or spontaneous escalation.

Amanda Knox was cool before and cool after, yet could not possibly expect, with her domestic profile, to have the street wisdom to carry this off.
I would say the precise same for Dewani.

Surely everyone can see that the notion of eliminating someone close to you without ending up in jail is a forlorn hope.

With all due respect, these are a long way short of the best arguments available and scarcely do justice even to those on the other side. Sticking with Dewani, what street wisdom? The plot (if there was one, which I deny) displayed a naïve lack of calculation and sophistication - but even if it showed the opposite, so what?

 

[anglolawyer]

And importantly, premeditation will guarantee a misstep. As John Cleese says, this is all too silly.

Says who?

 

[Samson]

Says who?

anglo, commonsense says this.
I really do not expect the burden to be on me to explain that people for whom life heretofore has been mundane, should be allowed such eccentric and violent behaviour as accomodated by any probability theory to be given breathing space.
Damn that is a terrible sentence.

 

[anglolawyer]

anglo, commonsense says this.
I really do not expect the burden to be on me to explain that people for whom life heretofore has been mundane, should be allowed such eccentric and violent behaviour as accomodated by any probability theory to be given breathing space.
Damn that is a terrible sentence.

The burden is on the state as always, and on those who maintain guilt here, as dictated by basic rules of rational discourse. You almost seem to be saying it 'stands to reason' he's innocent because he's rich and, er, normal. You can do much better than that.

 

[lane99]

At present

Had you been familiar with the Knox case, and the Dewani case, I presume you would have noticed how the former does not inform the case for Dewani's innocence in any meaningful way. To the contrary in fact. And one of the strongest reasons we can infer Knox is innocent is one and the same reason we can infer Dewani is guilty.

However Dewani supporters don't have any analogous cases that rigorously suggest the circumstantial and direct evidence in this case add up to anything but guilt. So smoke and mirrors is in order.
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[anglolawyer]

Had you been familiar with the Knox case, and the Dewani case, I presume you would have noticed how the former does not inform the case for Dewani's innocence in any meaningful way. To the contrary in fact. And one of the strongest reasons we can infer Knox is innocent is one and the same reason we can infer Dewani is guilty.

However Dewani supporters don't have any analogous cases that rigorously suggest the circumstantial and direct evidence in this case add up to anything but guilt. So smoke and mirrors is in order.
.
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What is it?

 

[anglolawyer]

A brief report from the BBC

Shrien Dewani 'agreed price for wife murder'

It seems R15,000 now equals £1,300 where before it was only £830. Probably the Rand has depreciated since 2010. Interestingly, they start with Qwabe, who is the compliant hijacker. I doubt the other one, Mngeni, will give evidence since his story ties up with Shrien's.

This snippet is interesting:

He told the court 10,000 rand was in the pouch and 4,000 rand was seized from "the husband".

Why 'seized'? Why didn't he just pay them? She was about to die. What did it matter what she saw or heard? And why did he short-change them by a measly R1,000 - less than a hundred quid? Why didn't they check the cash before they let him split? Where is the R10,000? Where is Tongo's money? What did Shrien have to say about the unauthorised theft of the jewellery? Etc etc etc

No one has answered these questions on this thread except with highly improbable 'so what's?' So everything.

 

[anglolawyer]

The Daily Mail (no link unless required) has this:

Qwabe said they shared the money that Mngeni had retrieved from the back of the car - R14,000 from the car in two bundles 'which was short of 10 from the R15,000' - and shared the phones to sell them.
Qwabe said he went back to Kyelitsha and spent the rest of the night socialising.
'Mngeni said he would sort it out [the missing R10,000] with Mondo as he was the one who had arranged the job. I wanted the other R5,000'

Now, a transcript of this would be worth having. Is he saying they got R5000 and were short by R5000 each or what? This is a crucial point. There can never have been a pouch with money in it if Dewani's case is true. That would mean they made up the price but have now got confused about it. They evidently aren't bright bulbs and this is exactly where I would expect their stories to fall apart - with the money. The cross exam should be devastating.

 

[MikeG]

You really wanted to be a criminal lawyer, AL, didn't you? Boundary disputes are so dull in comparison to a good contract killing.......

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

The full admissions list has been obtained by one of the journalists. She will post a link later. For now, she says it includes that his username on the fetish site was asiansubguy and he was a premium member. This we already knew.

He was logged onto the site both on the way to Cape Town and while he was at the hotel.

What a charmer!