Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

[Suffolk Skeptic]

The Daily Mail (no link unless required) has this:


Now, a transcript of this would be worth having. Is he saying they got R5000 and were short by R5000 each or what? This is a crucial point. There can never have been a pouch with money in it if Dewani's case is true. That would mean they made up the price but have now got confused about it. They evidently aren't bright bulbs and this is exactly where I would expect their stories to fall apart - with the money. The cross exam should be devastating.

The cross will be truly wonderful. I wish I was Van Zyl for this one.

Qwabe says he and Mgneni were acquaintances, he didn't know him as a friend, but Mgneni would sometimes come over to borrow his gun. Nice.

 

[anglolawyer]

The cross will be truly wonderful. I wish I was Van Zyl for this one.

Qwabe says he and Mgneni were acquaintances, he didn't know him as a friend, but Mgneni would sometimes come over to borrow his gun. Nice.

I have no way of knowing and I admit to outrageous bias too, but I think Qwabe is the killer and Mgeni the hapless idiot in the front seat. Mngeni will not be giving evidence, it seems, because he is too ill - with cancer.

 

[anglolawyer]

You really wanted to be a criminal lawyer, AL, didn't you? Boundary disputes are so dull in comparison to a good contract killing.......

Darn tootin'. My afternoon is filled with reading about the Party Wall Act 1996

 

[TofuFighter]

I have no way of knowing and I admit to outrageous bias too, but I think Qwabe is the killer and Mgeni the hapless idiot in the front seat. Mngeni will not be giving evidence, it seems, because he is too ill - with cancer.

lol. And what is the source of that bias, AL?

1. Mngeni's version of events can't really match Dewani's. Mngeni claims never to have been there with Tongo and Qwabe, while several witnesses have placed him there (along with the other two), and his fingerprints were found on the vehicle.
2. During the Qwabe trial, it became very evident that Qwabe was the thinker, and Mngeni the do-er. Idiot though he may be, hapless he is not. Qwabe also claims to have been friends with Mngeni's brother, but not Mngeni himself.
3. In gugulethu or khayalitsha, killing someone for £900 or even £100 would not really be considered bizarre.
4. The BBC's use of the word 'seized' appears to be poetic license. None of the reports from the live trial that I have read suggested that there was any kind of forceful removal of money from Dewani. You make a good point about the cellphones (at least) though. Unless Shrien had a kind of dummy phone with him, i can't really see that he would be happy losing his phone (if he hordes info on his mobile in the same way that we plebs do)



I would also really like to read the transcripts though.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

I have no way of knowing and I admit to outrageous bias too, but I think Qwabe is the killer and Mgeni the hapless idiot in the front seat. Mngeni will not be giving evidence, it seems, because he is too ill - with cancer.

I've always thought that Qwabe was the shooter too.

It was his gun. He was the one who negotiated the hit and knew more about it (not that that was much) and his story about "oops did you do it already" regarding Mgneni seemed ridiculous.

They were both bound to blame each other, although in the grand scheme of things it matters not who did it. Bungling moronic criminals bickering about who pulled the trigger.

 

[TofuFighter]

You really wanted to be a criminal lawyer, AL, didn't you? Boundary disputes are so dull in comparison to a good contract killing.......

Objection, your honour, inferring that this is a contract killing is premature. Move to strike MikeG if i may.

 

[TofuFighter]

I've always thought that Qwabe was the shooter too.

It was his gun. He was the one who negotiated the hit and knew more about it (not that that was much) and his story about "oops did you do it already" regarding Mgneni seemed ridiculous.

They were both bound to blame each other, although in the grand scheme of things it matters not who did it. Bungling moronic criminals bickering about who pulled the trigger.

If Qwabe was the shooter, wouldn't that make Mngeni's presence at best redundant, and at worst a liability? It makes more sense to me the other way.

 

[anglolawyer]

lol. And what is the source of that bias, AL?

Well, I have maintained from the start that Shrien is innocent and Mngeni's version fits that better so ...

1. Mngeni's version of events can't really match Dewani's. Mngeni claims never to have been there with Tongo and Qwabe, while several witnesses have placed him there (along with the other two), and his fingerprints were found on the vehicle.

This may have been his first account but I am sure, advancing senility notwithstanding, that he later recanted and gave an account of his involvement in the hijack and that his account matches Dewani's in important respects. For example, I don't think he says they came away with R14000. Now I need to find his defence statement and look it up again!

2. During the Qwabe trial, it became very evident that Qwabe was the thinker, and Mngeni the do-er. Idiot though he may be, hapless he is not. Qwabe also claims to have been friends with Mngeni's brother, but not Mngeni himself.
3. In gugulethu or khayalitsha, killing someone for £900 or even £100 would not really be considered bizarre.
4. The BBC's use of the word 'seized' appears to be poetic license. None of the reports from the live trial that I have read suggested that there was any kind of forceful removal of money from Dewani. You make a good point about the cellphones (at least) though. Unless Shrien had a kind of dummy phone with him, i can't really see that he would be happy losing his phone (if he hordes info on his mobile in the same way that we plebs do)

Not just the phones but R250,000 worth of jewellery (not street value as super hot items, I know). Just interjecting here, a far better plan was not to kill either of them but just nick their jewellery and money and then fence the former when the heat died down. That way the stuff would not have been untouchable and would have fetched a better price and no one would turn Heaven and Earth upside down on account of a couple of foolish travellers sightseeing in the town ship at night.

I would also really like to read the transcripts though.

Yup

Objection, your honour, inferring that this is a contract killing is premature. Move to strike MikeG if i may.

Sustained!

If Qwabe was the shooter, wouldn't that make Mngeni's presence at best redundant, and at worst a liability? It makes more sense to me the other way.

You need a driver and another guy pointing the weapon, no? Two man job. Plus you need two to deal with any heroics (this assumes an innocent Dewani).

 

[anglolawyer]

Having looked it up, what I mis-remember as Mngeni changing his position and admitting involvement is in fact the other way around. He gave a statement (allegedly) admitting complicity but later claimed that he was coerced and his case at trial was that he played no part. It is that statement that contains details that accord with Shrien's account. Here is the judge's summary of it (not the statement itself) in the judgment:

I will now briefly deal with the evidence of the statement the accused made to Jonker and the evidence of the pointing out to Captain Ontong.
In the statement the accused made to Captain Jonker he admitted some involvement in this case. He admitted that he was transported in Vanda’s vehicle with Qwabe to Gugulethu. He gives an account of how Tongo’s vehicle was hijacked, he says that Qwabe was the person who had the firearm and hijacked the vehicle. That he saw Tongo and took away his phone. He also states that Qwabe gave him the firearm and he pointed it at the Dewanis. They were robbed of cellular phones and a camera. He says further in his statement that after they had asked Mr Dewani to leave the vehicle, they drove further to Khayelitsha where Qwabe took the firearm and killed the deceased.
Thereafter they ran into bushes, where he hid the phones and the camera. During the pointing out, the accused went to point out the following places:
1) the road in Gugulethu where he says they hijacked the vehicle;
2) the place in Gugulethu where they dropped Tongo off.
From Gugulethu they drove to Khayelitsha where he pointed out:

 

[TofuFighter]

This may have been his first account but I am sure, advancing senility notwithstanding, that he later recanted and gave an account of his involvement in the hijack and that his account matches Dewani's in important respects. For example, I don't think he says they came away with R14000. Now I need to find his defence statement and look it up again!

You need a driver and another guy pointing the weapon, no? Two man job. Plus you need two to deal with any heroics (this assumes an innocent Dewani).

Apologies for the aggravation. Now having looked back at Mngeni's revised account, he had stated that Qwabe was driving, had stopped and shot Anni from the driver's seat (RHS) while Mngeni was in the passenger seat.

- this contradicts ballistic evidence that Anni was shot from the front passenger seat
- this also contradicts the driver/gun-pointer logic

Edit - Just before adjournment today, Qwabe has stated that he doesn't know where Mngeni was seated when the shot was fired (???)

 

[anglolawyer]

Apologies for the aggravation. Now having looked back at Mngeni's revised account, he had stated that Qwabe was driving, had stopped and shot Anni from the driver's seat (RHS) while Mngeni was in the passenger seat.

- this contradicts ballistic evidence that Anni was shot from the front passenger seat
- this also contradicts the driver/gun-pointer logic

Edit - Just before adjournment today, Qwabe has stated that he doesn't know where Mngeni was seated when the shot was fired (???)

Hmm, it seems Mngeni's was a video-taped confession. Anyhoo, it turns out Qwabe is not unimpeachable on who sat where either.

What do you think about them keeping Tongo back? That has to be tactical. The evidence should be chronological, although I suppose the murder itself might oust that ideal. Everything hangs on Tongo and whether he can keep a straight face tell a coherent story.

 

[MikeG]

Objection, your honour, inferring that this is a contract killing is premature. Move to strike MikeG if i may.

Where do you propose striking me? Not the nose, please. I've broken it 5 times already, and I just don't need the pain. How about cuffing me about the ears and then I'll just bugger off of my own accord?

...........Sustained!......

Here was I thinking you were the prosecuting barrister, and now you turn all judge-like.

 

[TofuFighter]

Hmm, it seems Mngeni's was a video-taped confession. Anyhoo, it turns out Qwabe is not unimpeachable on who sat where either.

What do you think about them keeping Tongo back? That has to be tactical. The evidence should be chronological, although I suppose the murder itself might oust that ideal. Everything hangs on Tongo and whether he can keep a straight face tell a coherent story.

Tongo seems, of all of them, to be the most reliable, if that word can be used to describe any of them at all. He had tried to avoid having his family find out that he was complicit by suggesting to them that he was just a witness, and that his subsequent absence (prison term) was part of a witness protection plan. It didn't work, but it does suggest some level of shame/pride which neither Mngeni nor Qwabe displayed.

I can't even speculate as to whether his being held back is tactical. It's entirely likely that he doesn't want to testify at all.

One last thing... All three of these individuals (plus Mbolombo) have had to maintain their accusation against Shrien since the beginning.
Conspiracy theorists usually have no problem believing that any number of people can maintain a secret, but i have a problem believing that even four can manage it (plus any number of cops, if they had a hand in creating this false account of Dewani). Yes, there is the threat of amended prison terms, and/or maltreatment by law enforcement. Still...

 

[anglolawyer]

Tongo seems, of all of them, to be the most reliable, if that word can be used to describe any of them at all. He had tried to avoid having his family find out that he was complicit by suggesting to them that he was just a witness, and that his subsequent absence (prison term) was part of a witness protection plan. It didn't work, but it does suggest some level of shame/pride which neither Mngeni nor Qwabe displayed.

I can't even speculate as to whether his being held back is tactical. It's entirely likely that he doesn't want to testify at all.

One last thing... All three of these individuals (plus Mbolombo) have had to maintain their accusation against Shrien since the beginning.
Conspiracy theorists usually have no problem believing that any number of people can maintain a secret, but i have a problem believing that even four can manage it (plus any number of cops, if they had a hand in creating this false account of Dewani). Yes, there is the threat of amended prison terms, and/or maltreatment by law enforcement. Still...

I don't find the mass conspiracy thing hard to understand. First, it's only three guys, not four. Mngeni has never said anything about a pre-planned hijack or, if he did, he recanted and said the cops crushed his nuts by shutting a drawer on them (which would make us confess to anything, eh guys?). Mbolombo, likely the star witness, got off scot free, despite conspiring to murder on his own account, so he would say anything. And both Qwabe and Tongo got sentence reductions.

I probably have to concede that the cops have to be in on the conspiracy too. Or a cop. But it does not have to be the four of them sitting round a table and getting the story straight. The way I see it, a suspicious cop developed a theory which Tongo latched onto as a way out, and then the others were 'led' to make their stories fit.

Btw. I never heard this story before about Tongo claiming to be in witness protection. Sounds pretty daft when his involvement was all over the papers from the beginning.

 

[lane99]

"Bi-Sexual" means....account at both Gaydar AND Recon?

Turns out Dewani was secretly browsing kinky gay sex and fetish websites even during the honeymoon with "the love of my life". And was back to them less than 48 hours after her murder.

He had been an active member at the sites for years. Within a day or so of the arrests of the hitmen, Dewani suddenly deleted his accounts.
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[katy_did]

Turns out Dewani was secretly browsing kinky gay sex and fetish websites even during the honeymoon with "the love of my life". And was back to them less than 48 hours after her murder.

He had been an active member at the sites for years. Within a day or so of the arrests of the hitmen, Dewani suddenly deleted his accounts.
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Well, not really. The first "hit man" was arrested three days after the killing, while Dewani is supposed to have deactivated his accounts a week after. The deletion of his accounts does however correspond with the first of the tabloid stories digging into his background.

 

[lane99]

Lickmybootsguy misses him greatly

Yes really. In fact, to be precise, "Asiansubguy" beat a hasty retreat from the gay websites within ONE DAY of the taxi driver (the conspirator who can directly link Dewani to the murder plot) being arrested.

Next step, of course, was to hire a PR flack to feed the tabloids fabricated rumours about what a prolific heterosexual stud Dewani was.

..

 

[katy_did]

Yes really. In fact, to be precise, "Asiansubguy" beat a hasty retreat from the gay websites within ONE DAY of the taxi driver (the conspirator who can directly link Dewani to the murder plot) being arrested.

Next step, of course, was to hire a PR flack to feed the tabloids fabricated rumours about what a prolific heterosexual stud Dewani was.

..

Yes, however as I said, the first of the "hit men" had been arrested a couple of days after the murder, and the second a couple of days after that, some days prior to Dewani deleting his profiles. If his principle concern were these hit men "ratting him out", as you're implying, then surely it would have made sense to delete these profiles once the first of them had been arrested.

In any case, it's pretty clear that the tabloid press digging into his background (an article in the Sun, IIRC, was published six days after the murder; Dewani deleted his profiles seven days after) is at least as likely a reason for him deactivating his profiles as were the arrests. For that reason you can't point to it as a sign of his guilt, as you were doing, since whether guilty or innocent I doubt he wanted the press to find those profiles. Likewise, hiring Max Clifford could as easily have been done by an innocent Dewani wanting to keep that side to his life private, as by a guilty one.

I don't know whether he's guilty or innocent, but I don't see the point in embellishing evidence to make it seem more incriminating when the "innocent" explanation is equally plausible.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes really. In fact, to be precise, "Asiansubguy" beat a hasty retreat from the gay websites within ONE DAY of the taxi driver (the conspirator who can directly link Dewani to the murder plot) being arrested.

Next step, of course, was to hire a PR flack to feed the tabloids fabricated rumours about what a prolific heterosexual stud Dewani was.

..

You seem rather selective in what you pick out of the day's proceedings. Of much greater relevance is the fact that Qwabe and Mngeni never discussed how or where the killing would be carried out. I guess in your book that's just a minor detail compared to the key question whether Dewani is a pitcher or a catcher.

 

[lane99]

Keystone Killers

No, that's not so much as even a minor detail. In fact it's no detail at all regards the question at hand: whether Dewani solicited the murder.

You get what you pay for. Same risk of lower quality that Nike bears when they subcontract their jobs to less developed regions. Lesson learned, I'm sure. If you want a job done right, do it yourself.

And, it certainly seems Dewani was an all-star catcher. Leaving his poor wife all alone in the dugout wondering what position she was supposed to play in the game. Heaven help her, if she had only known.
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