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Steve Doig said the images were good enough that they did count the people under the trees. He explains his methology.

http://stevedoig.com/archives/250

Cicero: You do know that Doig was the one quoted by the right about the anticipated attendance at Obama's inauguration. His was much lower than dems. Maybe his left-wing bias doesn't override his methodology?
 
He also had some side field he says he filled with 250,000.

From an unscientific vantage, it looks like a pretty small crowd, compared to, say, the folks that show up during the cherry blossom festival, and that draws in about 700k people over a number of days, and is a great deal more spread out. Certainly, it's nowhere near some of the other major events (Obama's inauguration, Million Man March, March for Women's Lives) And the photos don't look like people are really packed in - they're waving flags, sitting down, walking through, and so forth. 100k sounds about right to me, based just on eyeballing the photos.

And yeah, Bachmann's claim of at least 1 million people is laughable. But then again, Michelle Bachmann's always laughable - it's not really partisan to point that out.
 
Speaking of being skeptical, I'm far more likely to accept an estimate that explains how they reached their estimate than one where they don't. At least until something better comes along. I don't just discount a piece of information because it came from a source I disagree with politically.

Yeah, now if Cicero would actually cough up the methodology behind his earlier estimates of 600,000 to 2,000,000 then perhaps he'd garner a bit more respect here. But seeing as how those numbers came from somewhere in his colon, I'm thinking it'll take awhile to get the methodology since it likely rests somewhere deep within his small intestine :rolleyes:
 
I think Cleon has shown in other threads that he is no fan of Rev Al. A lot of us think Beck and Sharpton are birds of a feather, there are just working opposite sides of the street.

This. But Beck cries more.
 
Even taking into account the broader deltoids, the Beck's crowd appears to be quite snug.

[qimg]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/becksrally.jpg[/qimg]

Way to focus in on the most tightly packed section of the crowd. Photos of the entire crowd would give a better estimate, but then that might burst your bubble. I believe this is called cherry-picking the data, Cicero.
 
What did airphotoslive.com report to CBS about the crowd size at Al Sharpton's rally and when will CBS report these findings?

Sharpton's not even a major draw in Harlem at this point. Any rally he tries in DC will probably attract an insignificant number of people.
 
What did airphotoslive.com report to CBS about the crowd size at Al Sharpton's rally and when will CBS report these findings?

I've seen estimates of 3000 at Sharpton's rally, so they didn't need aerial photos. One guy with a number clicker could handle it. Can't say I'm surprised. Hopefully Sharpton will just go away someday, but I rather doubt it. He'll always be a publicity whore buzzing around the fringes.
 
Dude, read the thread. The response was not a denial of the importance of Dr. King's speech; the response was a pedantic observation of a typo made in the original post

The response was strictly aimed at the offered bet by Dudalb, and given his continued stubbornness and lack of insight into correcting his error, I'd say he missed the chance to correct it fair and square, and now owes the year's wages.

And no it doesn't go to JREF. It can go to the cause which all the money from the 828 meeting went to, SOWF.

Well unless....unless some proof can be shown of the "MKL speech".

Waiting....

Waiting....

Waiting...
 
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I am certain that at least two experts in the field of crowd estimation via aerial photography forgot that people can stand under trees.

Apparently they did. And that's not surprising since they also choose to work for CBS and that says a lot about their judgment.

Look carefully at this photo, Biscuit:

http://www.therightscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/crowdblowup.jpg

Let's see how good YOUR judgment is and how honest you can be with yourself. Or whether you are just blinded by partisanship.

That photo shows that the crowd is quite dense on the immediate right side of the reflecting pool from end to end along the entire length of the pool and, likewise, on the immediate left side of the reflecting pool from end to end. Look at the 4th through 8th images at this link: http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/44950/ . Look at some of the images of the crowd near the pool in the other links I provided. They show the density of that crowd in those two areas is standing room only. It's what the Park Service calls a high density crowd.

Now the Park Service used to use a figure of 2.5 square feet per person when estimating the number of people in a high density crowd (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-01-19-crowd_N.htm ). At that density, even just the area that is visible on each side of the reflecting pool before reaching the nearest trees … which my eyeballs says is about 6/10ths of the reflecting pool in total width … would comprise a crowd of 2029 * 167 * 0.6 / 2.5 = 81,000 … or about what CBS claims is the total estimated crowd there that day.

This is proof positive that the CBS estimate is nothing but total, absolute, partisan garbage.

So how big is the total crowd?

Well in the http://www.therightscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/crowdblowup.jpg image, you can also see people between the trees on the right side of the pool at various points along it's length. These gaps in the tree cover are approximately a width of the pool distant from the pool. And in every one of these gaps, from end to end of the pool, the density of the crowd looks to be about the same as the density of people packed right next to the pool itself. The closeup images in the links I provided clearly show that the density of people between the rows of trees in these areas and under the trees themselves is indeed high. Perhaps not quite as high as right next to the reflecting pool, but still high. Likewise the images show that the density of the crowd under the first set of trees on the left side of the pool is equally high. How many people can we conservatively estimate are in this area?

Together, those two regions (under the trees on the left side and under the trees on the right side out to a distance about equal to the width of the reflecting pool from the reflecting pool) are more than equal in width to the reflecting pool itself. And let's assume (based on the various close up images of the crowd in these areas and to be conservative) that the density in this area is what the Park Service used to call just "average". In that case they assumed 5 square feet per person when calculating crowd estimates. That gives a crowd in just this portion of the image of about 2029 * 167 / 5 = 68,000.

But, you can also see people in gaps between the trees on the right side of the area that we just counted. And these gaps also seem to have about the same apparent crowd density. As you look towards the Lincoln Memorial side of the reflecting pool, you can see people in gaps between the trees on the right side of the pool that are almost twice the width of the reflecting pool from the reflecting pool itself. This makes sense, since people would tend to view those as good spots to see the podium which is nearby. And that portion of the image extends down to about 1/3rd the length of the reflecting pool from the upper end of the reflecting pool. Now let's assume that the crowd in that area is as dense as the one just calculated. This is certainly reasonable if we move the people that are clearly under the right most trees along the rest of the length of the reflecting pool into this area. These assumptions/observations gives a crowd in that area of at least 2029 / 3 * 167 / 5 = 22,000.

Next, on the left side of the image, we see a dense crowd in the large open area on the other side of the trees that are nearest the reflecting pool. That area is about 20-25% wider than the reflecting pool. The density of people in this region looks to be about the same over about 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the length of the area. And in those areas, the density appears to be at least "average" but could be even higher. The other 1/4th to 1/3rd of the region has people in it and if we again move people that were clearly at the event but still not counted into this region, I think we can safely assume the same density for the entire length of the region. Where can we find extra people? Well, the images I've linked show a large crowd gathered on the far side of the fountain near the bottom of the reflecting pool and on the near side of the fountain extending towards the Washington Monument. In fact, much of the lawn up to the Washington Monument had a large crowd on it, obviously watching the event. I suggest this crowd is enough to safely fill in the areas of lesser density in the region to the left of the trees on the left side of the reflecting pool to average density. If we do that, and then assume a density that is only 1/2 of the "average" assumption (to be conservative), we calculate a crowd of at least 2029 * 1.2 * 167 / 10 = 41,000.

So what do we have as an estimate, so far?

81,000 + 68,000 + 22,000 + 41,000 = 212,000.

And note that we still have to yet count the people who were on the side of the reflecting pool nearest the podium, scattered about the Lincoln Memorial itself, and in the trees off to the left of the large open area on the left side of the reflecting pool.

No, Biscuit, I think I can safely say that my first estimate of at least 200,000 people in the crowd at Beck's rally was quite good. And by the way, note that a National Park Service official gave NBC News an unofficial estimate of 300,000 which is probably closer to the real truth.

Finally, just for comparison, here are some images from Martin Luther King's Jobs And Freedom march/rally that was held in the same area of the mall back in 1963. Police said 200,000 was the crowd size. King's staff claimed 300,000.

In the first image, you will notice that there don't appear to be any people … just tents … in the open area to the right of the row of trees on the right side of the reflecting pool (what we've been calling the left side of the pool, looking away from the Washington Monument). In Beck's case, this area is densely full of people.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:39&biw=1526&bih=898

In the next image, you will notice that the crowd wasn't as dense as Beck's next to the reflecting pond once you got some distance away from the Lincoln Memorial. In fact, on the left side of the reflecting pool near the rear, you can see so very sparely occupied areas.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/March_on_Washington_edit.jpg

Now let's see if you are logical and honest, and can draw the right conclusion. Or whether you are just a partisan who dislikes Beck enough to be dishonest with even yourself. :D
 
Steve Doig said the images were good enough that they did count the people under the trees.

Then he's lying, as I just easily proved above.

By the way, various sources concluded there were about 1.8 million people at Obama's inauguration, so if Doig's methodology calculated a crowd of only 800,000, as he said in what you linked, then one might hazard he undercounted the Beck rally by at least the same fraction. In which case, the crowd size would range from 75,000 * 1.8/0.8 to 96,000 * 1.8/0.8 = 169,000 to 216,000. And that puts it squarely in the range of what I calculated above.
 
Then he's lying, as I just easily proved above.

No, you haven't proven anything. I see gaps in the crowd in the pictures of Beck's herd.

In the King rally, I have to wonder at what time the picture was taken because there are empty chairs right up front. WTF? And the crowd looks pretty uniformly packed.

Bear in mind that a large percentage of the people attending the King rally were black. So lets say about half, just for conmvenience. So we have 150,000 people out of a population of far less than 200,000,000. And these were not rich people by most standards, so transportation to DC for the rally was a problem.

So, do you now expect me to be impressed with about 300,000 prosperous white people out of a population of over 300,000,000 coming to hear the ranting lunatic, especially since there were so many able to easily pay their own way and to bring along a car load of other nutbars, or subsidize a bus to go pick up a few more?

Bear in mind, too, that these treabaggers did not grow up in an environment in which they might have gotten shot for dissenting against the status quo.

Beck is far less important than Dr King and will never amount to half as much.
 
Then he's lying, as I just easily proved above.

By the way, various sources concluded there were about 1.8 million people at Obama's inauguration, so if Doig's methodology calculated a crowd of only 800,000, as he said in what you linked, then one might hazard he undercounted the Beck rally by at least the same fraction. In which case, the crowd size would range from 75,000 * 1.8/0.8 to 96,000 * 1.8/0.8 = 169,000 to 216,000. And that puts it squarely in the range of what I calculated above.

I concur, it didn't take more than 120 seconds for me to get an estimate of the area, then density, and estimate 250K. That tells me that all the lying hacks both on this forum and on the media have some little agendas they are Obeying to. Thus on this subject they use the tactic of persistent and insistent denial. Nothing new with that.

But personally, I think we should use a crowd size estimate with the same (lack of) scientific estimation procedures that was used by these lying hacks for crowds that said lying hacks liked.

You know, just to be consistent....
 
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That tells me that all the lying hacks both on this forum and on the media have some little agendas they are Obeying to. Thus on this subject they use the tactic of persistent and insistent denial. Nothing new with that.

I agree. Michelle Bachman's estimate of one million betrays her as a lying hack with a little agenda she is Obeying.
 
It's interesting to see how third party experts are discounted just because the conservatives don't seem to like the numbers they came up with. The one piece of evidence Cicero offered to support Daig as partisan said nothing of the kind.

And I didn't realize that our resident right wing extremists are experts at crowd counting. Yet I've still seen nothing to argue against the expert's methodology, other than calling them liars - though I did only skim BAC's posts (because there's only so much hatred I can read in one sitting).
 
And I didn't realize that our resident right wing extremists are experts at crowd counting.

You must have missed where Cicero advised he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
BaC, just calling someone a liar and using your own biased analysis of a photo does not prove anything. Until someone can actually prove that the expert stating 87K (+/-9K) had a problem with the actual method used to count I will stick to the experts opinion and not yours which we know is biased. Also I think there is something wrong with your link.

I will state this one last time because there seems to still be confusion. Airphotoslive did not nor ever has estimated the size of a crowd as part of their business. They do not offer this service and they don't claim to be experts in it. CBS news hired them to take aerial photos of beck fest. This is something they are experts in and is, in fact, what they do professionally. They then gave the photos to at least 2 if not 3 (still looking for the report that confirms 3) experts in the field of crowd estimation. The methodology used is know and accepted. The 87K figure is from experts using an accepted method of estimating. If I am going to accept any larger numbers they also need to come from experts using an accepted method.

Almost 100K is a lot of people for a TV personality to bring out to the mall. Congrats I never thought he would get that many.

Now, can anyone provide an experts opinion and method that the rally drew in any number over 200K? I heard it did bring in a flock of geese!
 
You saw the high resolution images that he used to perform his analysis?

LOL! So why haven't they released the actual photos used in their analysis? :D

As further proof that CBS's estimate is simply ridiculous, check out the 13th photo at this link: http://www.leftcoastrebel.com/2010/08/photos-aerial-pictures-of-glenn-beck.html . It's a view of the crowd on what I've been calling the right side of the reflecting pond. You can see from this photo that the crowd is clearly standing room only the entire length of the pond (i.e., high density) as far in as the trees on that side of the pond. That's a density of 2.5 sf per person according to the Park Service, exactly what I used in my 81,000 calculation above for just the crowd in the space between the reflecting pond and the trees on both sides of the pond.

Have you stopped to consider what 86,000 people (CBS' estimate) should look like spread out over the area seen in this photo: http://a.imageshack.us/img163/1691/beckrallyl.jpg ? That area is 2029 feet long and about 400 feet wide on both sides of the pond. If you spread out 86,000, that's 1 person per 2029 * 800 / 86000 = 20 square feet. You can see that the density is far greater than that. You can see in the photo I linked above that the density along the perimeter of the pond is far, far greater than that. And the many photos I linked of crowds under the trees earlier also show crowds that are far more dense than that spacing. Sorry, but the CBS' estimate should be nonsense to any rational, skeptical person who looks at these photos. So I guess this thread only confirms that certain folks on this forum are neither rational or skeptical. :D

Here are some more photos for you to ignore:

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-08/55837717.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31124293@N02/4938585841/

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/28/article-1306961-0AF38360000005DC-7_634x420.jpg

http://images.tbd.com/politics/glenn-beck-rally-westcott-828-005_606.jpg
 

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