Should we repeal the 2nd Amendment?

[PitPat]

Given the purpose of the 2nd amendment is for a milita. Is the answer not to limit gun ownership to those serving in the militia. In the UK that would be the territorial army. Not sure if the US have an equivalent but basically those signing up would have regular training and would undertake public service functions and where necessary be sent abroad with regular troops to protect the USA.

I would have sympathy with some of the arguments if the text said:-

Shooting holes in bits of paper, being necessary to the security of a free State...... or

Culling wild animals, being necessary to the security of a free State..... or

Defending personal property, being necessary to the security of a free State....

Kind of been done before and hasn't ended well.

Depending on the presidential election outcome, can kinda see it happening again.

 

[Lothian]

Kind of been done before and hasn't ended well.

Depending on the presidential election outcome, can kinda see it happening again.

Interesting. When?

 

[jt512]

While we're on it, I'd also like to see some gun owners' opinions on this video. It's fairly long (26:01), produced by Brian Brushwood, who was a long-term friend of Randi, and about how to safely and accurately shoot a target. Some of the comments under the video are pretty complementary about the instructor.

My main impression was that the less those two Hollywood idiots kept their mouths shut, the better.

As to the instructor's instructions:

• The four fundamental firearm safety rules were absolutely correct; any firearms instructor must instill those in you.
  
  
• Stance and grip: Who knows? There are infinite variations, and every instructor thinks their's is the best.
  
  
• Sight alignment and sight picture: Correct. Equal height; equal light. Front sight focus. Put the front sight on the target.
  
  
• Trigger control: Correct. Press the trigger, and the motion must not activate the muscles of the other fingers.
  
  
• Bullseye? ********. They put a shot at very short range into a 6- or 8-inch circle at like three yards (3 meters). Anybody can do that on their first shot if they understand sight alignment and trigger control.

This is a bullseye:

[IMGw=400]https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1488&pictureid=14000[/IMGw]

Three shots at 10 yards (10 meters). Two shots dead center through through the same hole. The third maybe a centimeter low. I can live with that.

 

[PitPat]

Interesting. When?

Ruby Ridge. Waco. Probably a few others.

ETA: When do I see it happening again? More people voted for president than one doesn't agree with. Because the whole system is rigged!

Nobody's gonna take my freedom away without a fight.

 

[Lothian]

Ruby Ridge. Waco. Probably a few others.

ETA: When do I see it happening again? More people voted for president than one doesn't agree with. Because the whole system is rigged!

Nobody's gonna take my freedom away without a fight.

No that is not what I am talking about. I am saying to own a gun people need to join an official branch of the army. They will get training and need to serve for around 3-4 weeks a year in their own time, although some employers give paid leave.
They join regular troups on exercises and also help out on other tasks where the army are required, whether ceremonial or operational. Perhaps one thing they could do, if only army and law enforcement officers are allowed guns, is help collect weapons from those unpatriotic people who keep them when that are not entitled to possess them.

Edited to add.
In the UK the time commitment is:-
You will need to train for up to 40 days a year depending on your role. Training takes place in the evening and on weekends plus a two-week annual camp. Your basic training will give you military skills such as tactics, weapon handling and map reading

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

No that is not what I am talking about. I am saying to own a gun people need to join an official branch of the army. They will get training and need to serve for around 3-4 weeks a year in their own time, although some employers give paid leave.
They join regular troups on exercises and also help out on other tasks where the army are required, whether ceremonial or operational. Perhaps one thing they could do, if only army and law enforcement officers are allowed guns, is help collect weapons from those unpatriotic people who keep them when that are not entitled to possess them.

Edited to add.
In the UK the time commitment is:-
You will need to train for up to 40 days a year depending on your role. Training takes place in the evening and on weekends plus a two-week annual camp. Your basic training will give you military skills such as tactics, weapon handling and map reading

The Swiss system is that all adult male citizens unless they have a disqualifying condition compulsorily serve in the militia for a number of years. While serving each militia member has to store all their issued equipment (including guns) safely, either on their own property or in an armory. Ammunition is only issued when the militia member is actively serving and militia members are prohibited from retaining or otherwise obtaining military grade ammo otherwise*.

It is very hard to obtain a licence for a privately owned weapon in Switzerland.

*Largely due to a mass murder event in Zug by a Swiss militia member when off duty.

 

[Norman Alexander]

I have some questions for members who are, or who have been, in the US military. You don't have to reveal your branch or exploits, nor the specific weapons involved. These questions are about weapons safety.

1) What weapons safety training were you given when you joined the military in basic training? How was it enforced? How strict was this safety training?

2) During your service, did you use weapons on active duty? If so, what safety measures, if any, were applied when you were not in action?

bumping

 

[theprestige]

bumping

Okay, sure. I admit I'm curious where you think this JAQ-off will lead.

1) When you sign out your gun from the armory, you cannot let it out of your sight or give up possession of it for any reason. The only exception is when you entrust it to your assigned buddy, so the two of you can take turns using the commode. You only load, aim, and fire your weapon on the range, at the instruction of the range safety officer. Pointing your weapon at anyone is the one time your drill instructor will absolutely lay hands on you.

2) (Army Reserves) nope, only for biannual qualifications. Everyone just kind of assumed we'd all just carry on with the principles of (1), browbeaten into us during basic.

 

[arthwollipot]

Okay, sure. I admit I'm curious where you think this JAQ-off will lead.

Is curiosity not an acceptable reason to you?

 

[arthwollipot]

My main impression was that the less those two Hollywood idiots kept their mouths shut, the better.

They definitely have their onscreen personas. One of the reasons they do that is to emphasise that they are not experts, they are seeking knowledge from experts, because learning new things is fun and interesting. The idiot personas permeate the channel, but if it annoys you I guess it's not for you.

And thanks for your analysis. I agree that as far as "bullseye" goes, their shots weren't perfect. But they were still pretty good for two idiots who had never shot a revolver before. Your image, yes, is a much better bullseye.

 

[theprestige]

Is curiosity not an acceptable reason to you?

As a firm believer in radical choice, and a proponent of humanistic nihilism, all reasons are acceptable to me.

 

[jt512]

But they were still pretty good for two idiots who had never shot a revolver before.

I would say that they are average for two idiots who never shot a revolver before.

 

[arthwollipot]

As a firm believer in radical choice, and a proponent of humanistic nihilism, all reasons are acceptable to me.

Then why the assumption of an ulterior motive?

 

[Doubt]

1) When you sign out your gun from the armory, you cannot let it out of your sight or give up possession of it for any reason. The only exception is when you entrust it to your assigned buddy, so the two of you can take turns using the commode. You only load, aim, and fire your weapon on the range, at the instruction of the range safety officer. Pointing your weapon at anyone is the one time your drill instructor will absolutely lay hands on you.

Yup. Pretty much the same for everybody. Spent enough time on ranges to the point where I am not sure I could do anything but keep a rifle pointed up and down range until is has been cleared by the safety NCO.

2) (Army Reserves) nope, only for biannual qualifications. Everyone just kind of assumed we'd all just carry on with the principles of (1), browbeaten into us during basic.

True enough for when I was enlisted in the engineers on active duty. In infantry officers basic course we did a lot of live fire exercises where we moved forward in simulated tactical engagements. Some of those allowed for some variation in behavior not allowed elsewhere.

One of my fellow students once ignored the actual targets and tried to cut down a tree with an M-60 machine gun. The tree was still standing after approximately 200 rounds were fired at it. The tree was already long dead and had a lot of bullets in it even before he tried to do that. The student in question was told not to do that again or it would be a problem.

A few people ended up in more embarrassing situations that served as learning experiences for all of us. The milder ones were when it was revealed to us that a sizable percentage of us had not actually been taking good aim at the targets when our shooting was not being scored. This was proved by putting clear plastic bags over target silhouettes and counting the holes afterwards.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Okay, sure. I admit I'm curious where you think this JAQ-off will lead.

Well, thanks. Having never been in the military, US or Australian or Calathumpian for that matter, my only knowledge of real-life weapons safety for armed services is the movies. Which I suspect takes exceptional liberties with facts.

1) When you sign out your gun from the armory, you cannot let it out of your sight or give up possession of it for any reason. The only exception is when you entrust it to your assigned buddy, so the two of you can take turns using the commode. You only load, aim, and fire your weapon on the range, at the instruction of the range safety officer. Pointing your weapon at anyone is the one time your drill instructor will absolutely lay hands on you.

2) (Army Reserves) nope, only for biannual qualifications. Everyone just kind of assumed we'd all just carry on with the principles of (1), browbeaten into us during basic.

Thank you. That is precisely the sort of information I had hoped to see. FYI, I have no issues with any of it.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Yup. Pretty much the same for everybody. Spent enough time on ranges to the point where I am not sure I could do anything but keep a rifle pointed up and down range until is has been cleared by the safety NCO.



True enough for when I was enlisted in the engineers on active duty. In infantry officers basic course we did a lot of live fire exercises where we moved forward in simulated tactical engagements. Some of those allowed for some variation in behavior not allowed elsewhere.

One of my fellow students once ignored the actual targets and tried to cut down a tree with an M-60 machine gun. The tree was still standing after approximately 200 rounds were fired at it. The tree was already long dead and had a lot of bullets in it even before he tried to do that. The student in question was told not to do that again or it would be a problem.

A few people ended up in more embarrassing situations that served as learning experiences for all of us. The milder ones were when it was revealed to us that a sizable percentage of us had not actually been taking good aim at the targets when our shooting was not being scored. This was proved by putting clear plastic bags over target silhouettes and counting the holes afterwards.

Thanks to you as well. More real-life info to replace the move-driven crap.

 

[Ranb]

1) What weapons safety training were you given when you joined the military in basic training? How was it enforced? How strict was this safety training?

2) During your service, did you use weapons on active duty? If so, what safety measures, if any, were applied when you were not in action?

US Navy boot camp in 2003. We had classroom instruction only. This was unusual I later found out as most boot camp companies at the time also got range time in a 1911 pistol converted to 22lr.

Later on while stationed on various submarines, I had actual security force training which enabled me to qualify on the 45ACP, and 9mm pistols, M-16, M-14 and 12 gauge shotguns. All of the range time was very strictly controlled by the range safety officers and the instructors. We learned to load, unload aim and shoot the firearms. We were required to ask for assistance in clearing any malfunctions.

In my opinion the number of rounds we fired was not nearly enough to be proficient. Something I found out later when I bought my own rifles and pistols and went to the range by myself or with friends.

I was a steam plant operator in the Navy, never stood watch as armed security. After the cold war ended, the firearms training for Engineering Department was largely curtailed on my subs.

Ranb

 

[bigred]

The 2nd Amendment gives Americans and legal residents the right to protect themselves, their families and the public with firearms from violence.

:facepalm:

No it doesn't. But the absurd (and conveniently intentional) misinterpretation of it tells me that yeah, it should be repealed.

PS retired military talking here, so anyone hoping to dismiss my comments as some left wing, "oh what do you know about guns" thing would be wise to think again. Of all the justifications given for the "right" to own guns, that is one of the if not the very lamest.

But the sad fact is it doesn't matter. Guns are so ingrained in our society that repealing the 2d amendment would be meaningless. What then? Send cops around to search people's houses for guns? Riiiight.

The ship has sailed. Like it or not, gun ownership in our society is here to stay.

 

[bigred]

I have some questions for members who are, or who have been, in the US military. You don't have to reveal your branch or exploits, nor the specific weapons involved. These questions are about weapons safety.

1) What weapons safety training were you given when you joined the military in basic training? How was it enforced? How strict was this safety training?

2) During your service, did you use weapons on active duty? If so, what safety measures, if any, were applied when you were not in action?

1 - Not sure what you're looking for there. Can you be more specific? We were taught the basics of shooting (stance etc), how to take apart, clean, and put the weapon back together, but above all, yeah, safety first. duh. There really wasn't a need to "enforce" it because it was never questioned. Why would it be?

2 - No. And the answer is the same for most people in the military FYI.

My question is what is the point of these questions? Did you hope to expose how the military doesn't stress safety with guns or something?

 

[Norman Alexander]

US Navy boot camp in 2003. We had classroom instruction only. This was unusual I later found out as most boot camp companies at the time also got range time in a 1911 pistol converted to 22lr.

Later on while stationed on various submarines, I had actual security force training which enabled me to qualify on the 45ACP, and 9mm pistols, M-16, M-14 and 12 gauge shotguns. All of the range time was very strictly controlled by the range safety officers and the instructors. We learned to load, unload aim and shoot the firearms. We were required to ask for assistance in clearing any malfunctions.

In my opinion the number of rounds we fired was not nearly enough to be proficient. Something I found out later when I bought my own rifles and pistols and went to the range by myself or with friends.

I was a steam plant operator in the Navy, never stood watch as armed security. After the cold war ended, the firearms training for Engineering Department was largely curtailed on my subs.

Ranb

Thanks to you as well for this info.