Should we repeal the 2nd Amendment?

[theprestige]

That sounds completely insane to me. Risking your life on the chance that you are more of a bad ass than the person who pulled a gun on you!

Better if neither of us has a gun.

Okay so which of us gives up our gun first? The law abiding citizen, or the criminal with the illegal gun?

That's your problem. That's your brain dead, virtue signaling, woke ass, nonsense problem: If all the good guys give up their right to self defense, you'll totally guarantee that you promise to stop the bad guys before any more good guys get hurt.

 

[jt512]

And how is that not just perpetuating the problem?

Oh yes - sorry. You're not the one doing the mass shootings. Only other people are.

That's is precisely why it's not perpetuating the problem.

Well guess what? It's not about you.

Whoever is going to fix the US's murder problem, it is not going to be me. In the meantime, it is precisely me who is going to do what is necessary to protect himself and his loved ones from armed bad guys.

 

[jt512]

So what's the reason for being armed for self-defence again?

You seriously can't figure that out for yourself? It is to protect yourself form an armed attacker. Not all attacks occur by someone sticking a gun in your stomach, where you have to disarm the attacker. Here's the thing about guns: they fire bullets, so someone can attack you from a distance. HTH.

And, BTW, even in the case where you need to disarm the attacker. If they don't surrender to you are [correction: "or"] run away, you are still going to need to shoot them, and it is more reliable to shoot them with your own gun than theirs.

 

[acbytesla]

Okay so which of us gives up our gun first? The law abiding citizen, or the criminal with the illegal gun?

That's your problem. That's your brain dead, virtue signaling, woke ass, nonsense problem: If all the good guys give up their right to self defense, you'll totally guarantee that you promise to stop the bad guys before any more good guys get hurt.

But gun restrictions have happened all over the world and gun violence has dropped in all of them. Why do you think that is true?

It's not just bad ass criminals that commit violence with guns. It's often, generally law abiding citizens. Spouses killing their mates. Friends killing friends. Teenagers committing suicides.

 

[jt512]

Jt512 demonstrates why owning firearms for protection is problematic.

You're either carrying all the time, you're untrained. Or you're unlikely to ever actually need it and it is more a big pain in the ass.

It's hard to tell how much of that incomprehensible statement is due to the poor grammar and how much to the inherent incoherency of the argument.

Or everyone carries and we turn the modern world into the Wild West, where arguments devolve into killings.

In my experience, in environments where everybody is armed, those argument don't begin in the first place. Most people who legally arm themselves understand the consequences of getting into a confrontation with an armed opponent, and so they take pains to be nice to each other. It is amazing how polite people are at the range.

 

[arthwollipot]

Whoever is going to fix the US's murder problem, it is not going to be me.

In the meantime, it is precisely me who is going to do what is necessary to protect himself and his loved ones from armed bad guys.

Exactly. Thank you for making my point for me. To wit: it's always about you and only you. Other people will fix the gun problem. Other people are the bad actors - the ones doing the shooting. Not me. Never me. I'm not responsible.

Well, you're wrong. You are responsible. You can help. By realising that everything in the world does not exist to maximise your personal happiness and security - other people exist, and their happiness and security matter too. You do not exist on your own. You exist as part of a society - dare I say the word? - a collective. What you personally do has an effect on the collective as a whole.

Someone has to be brave enough to say "No more!" To say "I will set aside my personal feelings for the benefit of society as a whole." Only if enough individuals say that can society start to heal from the tragic consequences of rampant gun ownership in America.

 

[jt512]

I also think that it's extremely unrealistic for someone to be capable of reacting in a high-pressure deadly attack situation quickly enough and rationally enough to draw and fire a gun before their attacker can incapacitate them.

Edited by jimbob: 

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You're carrying for self defence. You see someone with a gun point it at you. Do you really think you can draw and fire your gun before they do?

If your alternative is getting shot, you better damn well try something.

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 0/12 violation removed

look up "force-on-force training" on youtube.

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 0/12 violation removed

 

[arthwollipot]

In my experience, in environments where everybody is armed, those argument don't begin in the first place. Most people who legally arm themselves understand the consequences of getting into a confrontation with an armed opponent, and so they take pains to be nice to each other. It is amazing how polite people are at the range.

Oh don't be naïve. The media and memeverse is chock full of shootings as a result of stupid arguments. Look, here's a list I found in literally three seconds on Google:

A list of reasons why people were shot in January 2017

A guest at my son’s New Year’s Eve party got drunk and wouldn’t leave, so I shot him dead. (Texas, January 1)

I got out my 9mm handgun to show it to my son, but I unintentionally shot him in the stomach. (Connecticut, January 7)

I work at a butcher shop, where we received a live buffalo to process. I was up on a ladder with a gun trying to shoot it, but it bumped the ladder and I shot myself in the leg. (Kansas, January 13)

I got in a fight with a guy, so I grabbed my gun and fired at him. My shot went through a wall and killed a woman in the next room. (Tennessee, January 14)

Some guy dinged my door in a parking lot and we started arguing about it. We both had guns, so I shot him first. (Texas, January 17)

My brother was arguing with me about which one of us treats Grandma right, so I shot him. (Texas, January 19)

I was arguing with my stepson about hotdogs and I said I was gonna shoot him. So my wife hid my gun. Then he kept arguing with me so I got my OTHER gun out and shot him dead. (Florida, January 23)

My neighbour was yelling at me because I kicked her dog, so I shot her dead. (Texas, January 24)

I accidentally ran over a dog with my car. The guy who owned the dog was really mad about it and was yelling at me, so I shot him dead. (Alabama, January 25)

Somebody in another car flashed their bright headlights at me (I was driving with my brights on), so I turned around, followed him and shot him. (North Carolina, January 28)

That's just one month. I'm sure you can find more if you spend more than three seconds on it.

 

[jt512]

Here's a highly trained police officer of 20 years who always carries a firearm on the job and never does when he's off the clock. He thinks carrying a deadly weapon is asking for trouble.

N=1. My personal firearms trainer is a cop, as are many firearms trainers. Many cops in the US encourage citizens to arm themselves and train to proficiency with their firearms so that they can effectively defend themselves.

 

[jrhowell]

And, BTW, even in the case where you need to disarm the attacker. If they don't surrender to you are run away, you are still going to need to shoot them, and it is more reliable to shoot them with your own gun than theirs.

I am having trouble understanding that but it sounds like you are advocating killing someone who is running away from you instead of letting law enforcement handle it. Another thing that sounds insane to me.

 

[jt512]

And, BTW, even in the case where you need to disarm the attacker. If they don't surrender to you are [correction: "or"] run away, you are still going to need to shoot them, and it is more reliable to shoot them with your own gun than theirs.

I am having trouble understanding that but it sounds like you are advocating killing someone who is running away from you instead of letting law enforcement handle it.

I meant the opposite of that, but made a typo in the original...now corrected.

 

[jt512]

Oh don't be naïve. The media and memeverse is chock full of shootings as a result of stupid arguments.

Edited by jimbob: 

everything outside the bold was uncivil only kept because of the reply it prompted

How newsworthy are arguments that were avoided in the first place because the parties new each other were armed, and were thus on their best behavior?

.

 

[acbytesla]

In my experience, in environments where everybody is armed, those argument don't begin in the first place. Most people who legally arm themselves understand the consequences of getting into a confrontation with an armed opponent, and so they take pains to be nice to each other. It is amazing how polite people are at the range.

And yet it is referred to the Wild West for a reason. Hmmmm.

 

[arthwollipot]

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 0/12 violation removed

If your alternative is getting shot, you better damn well try something.

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 0/12 violation removed

look up "force-on-force training" on youtube.

Edited by jimbob: 

rule 0/12 violation removed

Sorry. The vast majority of American gun owners have not undergone force-on-force training, and the vast majority of shooting situations do not play out in nice clean preprepared scenarios.

I actually encounter this sort of thing all the time in sword training. An important part of sword training is drills. Agent makes an attack, passive counters by doing this particular thing. Then the agent can make a countercounter move, and so on. The oldest European fighting manual, Ms. I.33 illustrates exactly this format - ward, counterward, attack, counter. Many other fechtbücher do as well.

But as soon as you put the manual away and start free sparring at speed, all this goes right out the window and you have to rely on instinct and muscle memory. Drill is great for training your muscle memory, for developing the awareness and biomechanical familiarity, but you are never going to do the moves exactly as you did in the drill.

A shooting situation is never going to play out exactly the way it might in a force-on-force training situation. Yes, you will train your muscle memory and situational awareness and general familiarity with the biomechanics and weight distribution, just the same way sword drill does, but in a real situation things can go sideways in an instant, and in that instant you can go from wondering just what the heck is happening right now to wondering nothing because you're dead.

Thinking that you're prepared for a gun fight because you've done an afternoon of force-on-force is quite simply deluded. Just as deluded as thinking you're prepared for a sword fight because you've read the manuals and done the drills.

 

[jt512]

And yet it is referred to the Wild West for a reason. Hmmmm.

I'm not going to respond that inanity, because doing so would run the risk of elevating it to the status of "argument."

 

[jt512]

Haha. Hahahaha. Lol.

Sorry. The vast majority of American gun owners have not undergone force-on-force training

True, so many gun owners will lose gunfights that, with training, they could have won.

and the vast majority of shooting situations do not play out in nice clean preprepared scenarios.

Had you looked up "force-on-force training," which, of course, you did not, you would have learned that the training pits students, who do unpredictable things, against each other, so that the training teaches how to improvise and react to unanticipated situations. That's, actually, kinda the whole point.

 

[acbytesla]

Oh don't be naïve. The media and memeverse is chock full of shootings as a result of stupid arguments. Look, here's a list I found in literally three seconds on Google:

That's just one month. I'm sure you can find more if you spend more than three seconds on it.

I have been following the case where a 65 year old man was just convicted and sentenced for shooting dead a 20 year old woman who drove up his driveway by mistake.

My little town that I live in has had three murders in the last ten years and 5 suicides. (four of the suicides were teenagers) All with guns. And not one of these senseless killings involved some other crime. It was husbands killing their wives and one of a man killing a long time friend.

 

[arthwollipot]

Had you looked up "force-on-force training," which, of course, you did not, you would have learned that the training pits students, who do unpredictable things, against each other, so that the training teaches how to improvise and react to unanticipated situations. That's, actually, kinda the whole point.

I did, thank you, and the situations are not unanticipated by those providing the training. See literally the rest of my post.

Improvisation and reaction can be trained, and yes, people who purport to carry firearms for self-defense absolutely should undergo such training. But a real fight is the ultimate jump scare. In the moment of jumping, you could be instantly dead.

As a complete aside, want to see me die a whole bunch of times? I'm the bald one.

 

[Stacyhs]

I need my gun to protect me and my family from people with guns.
It's my inalienable RIGHT, damn it!
An armed society is a polite society.


That's pretty much the gist of the "2A defense" argument.

Yeah, yeah...I know. Not interested in the "Nuh-Uh!" counterargument.

 

[arthwollipot]

Try applying lessons from skepticism 101. How newsworthy are arguments that were avoided in the first place because the parties new each other were armed, and were thus on their best behavior? And for the "memeverse," well, I'm just embarrassed for you for having used that in argument.

It was counter to your argument that most people who carry are sensible about not getting into arguments. I'm sorry, but the evidence does not support that, and your anecdote about how people behave at a gun range is not representative of any situation outside that unique environment.