Should we fear Bernie?

[Delvo]

The job of every insurance company is literally to pay out money.

Just like the job of every car company is literally to oprah their cars out!

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Even for the people for which the system is working, it's quite precarious.

The situation you describe is not the reality for very many people.

You're a middle class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer. You thought your job was stable, but the instability of the financial crisis has you second guessing that. You've seen good employees laid off and lose their health insurance. You've seen older employees forced into early retirement prior to their eligibility age for medicare. You've seen young workers staying onto their parents plans well into their mid 20's because they can't find jobs that provide care. You've seen sick workers trying to game out FMLA and disability policies so they don't get laid off and have to pay their own premiums while unable to work. You realize that a business decision to lay off workers means you could lose your health insurance overnight.

You've been told, year after year, that exploding health costs means there won't be a pay raise. You've been told that your plan that used to be 100% employer paid is now going to shift some premiums onto you. Every year there's more pressure to shift more of the premiums to the employee. You've gone from a PPO plan with copay to a high deductible plan over the last few years. Your high deductible has doubled and, a couple years later, doubled again. You thought you had figured out how to use your plan, but every few years it seems like the rules and networks change, and any mistake could mean a huge medical bill.

The only people I know that have medical plans they actually like are government employees with old-school union negotiated health care, and these health care plans are usually the crown jewel of the compensation for these jobs. The high deductible plan is becoming the new standard for private industry, and it sucks.

You forgot "but they don't have any life ruining medical problems right now, so they're still satisfied with their health insurance." The people on the news bitching about changes to their health care and the people on gofundme crying because they got the cancer are the same group of people.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Covid, not Corvid. It's not related to crows.

That's what the crows want you to think.

 

[dann]

Although they, of course,deny it, varaints of the lost tribe theory are the mainstay of the scenarios the Berniebros have for Bernie winning in November.

No, it's not. Do you actually consider this guy from MSNBC to be a 'Berniebro'??!
Panic over Sanders is unsupported by data

But the much bigger argument, or the one that I see more often, is that Sanders is sure to be an electoral disaster. He is going to be George McGovern all over again. He's going to get annihilated. And I'm just here to tell you that the evidence that we have, to the extent that we have evidence about an unknowable future, does not support that at all!
I mean, I spend all day looking at this stuff, and I would love to know the future as we all would.
We can't know the future. All we can do is just look at some of the evidence that we have, and I'm telling you: It's not in the data. It isn't!

You can see the data that he presents for yourselves. It's just three minutes long.

 

[dann]

IWe have to be careful that Bernie doesn't blow it so we don't take the Senate back and we get 4 more years of Trump on top of that because too many voters fear his brand of socialism.

See post 524 above.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

McGovern was the centrist, establishment pick that the party elites rammed into place over the upstart charismatic progressive nominated by the people. Sounds like Bernie to me.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You forgot "but they don't have any life ruining medical problems right now, so they're still satisfied with their health insurance." The people on the news bitching about changes to their health care and the people on gofundme crying because they got the cancer are the same group of people.

With high deductible plans, even healthy people are going to start facing some nasty situations. The high deductible plan means you are pretty much paying 100% of your non-preventative care unless you have a major procedure that runs the costs up.

I had to have a mole removed that was a pre-cancer concern. I paid 100% for everything. Healthy people are going to be paying for 100% for the common minor procedures that are just part of life, where in the past they might only have to pay a 20% copay.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

With high deductible plans, even healthy people are going to start facing some nasty situations. The high deductible plan means you are pretty much paying 100% of your non-preventative care unless you have a major procedure that runs the costs up.

I had to have a mole removed that was a pre-cancer concern. I paid 100% for everything. Healthy people are going to be paying for 100% for the common minor procedures that are just part of life, where in the past they might only have to pay a 20% copay.

I don't disagree with any of that, I just think people are more short sighted that you're giving them credit for. "Going to start facing" is not facing it right now, so people aren't going to be as motivated to improve their situation as they need to be.

 

[theprestige]

: D l:
Just like the job of every car company is literally to oprah their cars out!
: D l:

If you pay them for it, yeah.

Insurance companies are paid to perform a service.

 

[Trebuchet]

Even for the people for which the system is working, it's quite precarious.

The situation you describe is not the reality for very many people.

You're a middle class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer. You thought your job was stable, but the instability of the financial crisis has you second guessing that. You've seen good employees laid off and lose their health insurance. You've seen older employees forced into early retirement prior to their eligibility age for medicare. You've seen young workers staying onto their parents plans well into their mid 20's because they can't find jobs that provide care. You've seen sick workers trying to game out FMLA and disability policies so they don't get laid off and have to pay their own premiums while unable to work. You realize that a business decision to lay off workers means you could lose your health insurance overnight.

You've been told, year after year, that exploding health costs means there won't be a pay raise. You've been told that your plan that used to be 100% employer paid is now going to shift some premiums onto you. Every year there's more pressure to shift more of the premiums to the employee. You've gone from a PPO plan with copay to a high deductible plan over the last few years. Your high deductible has doubled and, a couple years later, doubled again. You thought you had figured out how to use your plan, but every few years it seems like the rules and networks change, and any mistake could mean a huge medical bill.

The only people I know that have medical plans they actually like are government employees with old-school union negotiated health care, and these health care plans are usually the crown jewel of the compensation for these jobs. The high deductible plan is becoming the new standard for private industry, and it sucks.

Been there, done that. Even in a company which was heavily unionized as mine was. There were health plan takeaways in every new contract.

 

[Random]

The reason there is as much traction as there is for some kind of UHC plan is because it is not only traditionally poor people struggling with health care and insurance issues anymore.

The aggravation has reached through poor, to "working poor", "lower middle class", and even some who could arguably be called "middle class".

If it were just the poor that were unsatisfied with these outcomes, it would not be anyones' main platform plank.

Yeah, healthcare in America has been collapsing for decades, but it has been collapsing from the bottom up. The small handful of people at the top of the pyramid will never be affected since the people at the bottom and middle of the pyramid will force a shift to a National Healthcare plan long before the rot reaches them.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

That's what the crows want you to think.

Don't be silly. Birds aren't real.

 

[Segnosaur]

But, lets say you're a middle-class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer, and your job is pretty stable. You have no problem getting treatment when you want it, waiting lists are relatively short, and because its payed for by your employer, you never worry about cost.

Even for the people for which the system is working, it's quite precarious.

Actually no, no its not.

Yes, losing your job would really suck. But the fact is, even in 2008 recession, the number of job losses was only ~8 million. Given the fact that there are ~150 million employed people, you're talking only 5% actually losing their jobs. That means ~95% of people would end up keeping their jobs.

So, if you're a suburbanite with good health care and a steady job... what are your choices?
- Keep the health care status quo, and know that you're 95% likely to keep your job (And this maintain your current health care) even if the economy falters
- Go with BernieCare, and have a 100% chance that things will change, emulating a health care system which regularly experiences long wait times

Hmmm... a sububanite has to decide whether they will have a 95% chance of quick access to medical care, or 100% access to a long waiting list. Hmmm... which to pick?

The situation you describe is not the reality for very many people.

Never claimed it would be a situation that affects everyone. But it will be a significant minority.

That's the problem with BernieBros... an complete inability to recognize that not everyone has the same priorities, or has the same personal situations. You jump in and shout "This is best for everyone" without understanding that no, not everyone is going to see equal benefit.

The only people I know that have medical plans they actually like are government employees with old-school union negotiated health care, and these health care plans are usually the crown jewel of the compensation for these jobs.

I cannot speak of people you personally know, but across the united states, the vast majority of people are quite satisfied with their health care. That is according to a gallop poll that I posted earlier.

 

[dann]

Don't be silly. Birds aren't real.

And if they are, they'll all be dead by April.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Actually no, no its not.

Yes, losing your job would really suck. But the fact is, even in 2008 recession, the number of job losses was only ~8 million. Given the fact that there are ~150 million employed people, you're talking only 5% actually losing their jobs. That means ~95% of people would end up keeping their jobs.

So, if you're a suburbanite with good health care and a steady job... what are your choices?
- Keep the health care status quo, and know that you're 95% likely to keep your job (And this maintain your current health care) even if the economy falters
- Go with BernieCare, and have a 100% chance that things will change, emulating a health care system which regularly experiences long wait times

Hmmm... a sububanite has to decide whether they will have a 95% chance of quick access to medical care, or 100% access to a long waiting list. Hmmm... which to pick?

Never claimed it would be a situation that affects everyone. But it will be a significant minority.

That's the problem with BernieBros... an complete inability to recognize that not everyone has the same priorities, or has the same personal situations. You jump in and shout "This is best for everyone" without understanding that no, not everyone is going to see equal benefit.

I cannot speak of people you personally know, but across the united states, the vast majority of people are quite satisfied with their health care. That is according to a gallop poll that I posted earlier.

I wouldn't be so sure that that Gallup poll is as definitive as you may think it is. People are happy with the quality of their healthcare. Hell, I'm happy with the quality of my healthcare. My doctors are good. The insurance company is a vampire, but I'm happy with the care that I receive.

People are also very attuned to the increasing costs of health insurance. Losing a job is only one part of the nightmare. Costs are going up every year. Good insurance plans are being converted into high deductible plans every year. Companies are citing the increasing costs and putting more of the burden on employees. Uncertainty fills the air, and every year is another opportunity for plans to get more expensive.

I'll grant you that there are lots of people who are apprehensive to change. Even the ACA faced that, and that was a rather minor reform to keep the current system running. No matter how bad things are, people are terrified that it could be much worse. Insured people are terrified that change could mean they too could join the growing underclass of uninsured or under insured people in the societal meat grinder.

Medicare for all will face an uphill climb. Bernie will have to convince skeptics and worried people. It will take tremendous work. A extended grassroots campaign to make a better society, but worth the effort.

I'm just so tired of the establishment dems looking at a difficult problem and giving up before they've even started. The defeatism baked into the DNC is so bleak.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Healthcare has become a Prestige thing: admitting that you have no or crappy insurance is tantamount to admitting that you are economically at risk.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Hmmm... a sububanite has to decide whether they will have a 95% chance of quick access to medical care, or 100% access to a long waiting list. Hmmm... which to pick?

I know that you're speaking about what people believe, rather than what is actually true, but which country has the quicker wait times depends on exactly how you measure that. Here is one perspective that speaks to the myth that US wait times are smaller. Here is another perspective that shows more of both sides of the issue.

The main reason why the myth exists that the US has shorter wait times is that the UK operates on a kind of triage system, beyond the GP. The more serious your condition, the less time you'll have to wait.

Yes, you can wait for months for a procedure if it's not life-threatening. But, as an example of the opposite, last year my mother went to see a specialist in a slot at the end of the day. The specialist was worried that there might potentially be something serious wrong (there wasn't, thank God), so at the end of the appointment, she personally took my mum's file up to the relevant department. 10-15 minutes later, while we were driving home, she got a phone call telling her she'd been scheduled for an MRI at 9AM the next day,

As for the GPs themselves, by far the most common scenario is being seen the same day that you make an appointment. If they are totally booked and can't fit you in, it'll be the next day. According to the first article I linked in Boston it can be up to 66 days. 66 days! That's crazy.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You are one of 30 million Americans who live more then an hour's drive from the nearest trauma center.

You just had a heart attack or stroke.

You don't care how much it's going to cost once you get to the hospital because you'll be dead 3 or 4 times over by the time you get there.

Rural America is not going to vote for universal healthcare that only "city folk" are gonna get to use. It's the "I don't understand why the 60 million people who live out where the buses don't run aren't paying for my mass transit to be better" problem again.

People really need to learn how "The X I have isn't good enough" sounds to the people who don't have anything.

Every time a news story hit about the 100,000 people in Flint Michigan who's water wasn't good enough, one of the 2 million Americans who don't have access to running water at all crossed that line from "I want to fix the system" to "I want to punish the system."

 

[pgwenthold]

How many of those who insist that they are happy with their current healthcare coverage will whine about how ObamaCare made their premiums go up so much and needs to be killed?

 

[theprestige]

Healthcare has become a Prestige thing: admitting that you have no or crappy insurance is tantamount to admitting that you are economically at risk.

Leave me out of this.