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Should we fear Bernie?

dudalb said:
Although they, of course,deny it, varaints of the lost tribe theory are the mainstay of the scenarios the Berniebros have for Bernie winning in November.
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Although you, of course, ignore it, you have been repeatedly shown polls with Bernie leading Trump in key battleground states.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Yeah, people are willing to give up their health care, whatever problems they might have with it, for something which nobody really knows what will replace it.
Dream on.
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I aint dreaming. Most Americans are dissatisfied with the current system and want something else. Polling data supports that.

The most popular option, at 32 percent, consisted of a universal, government-operated system that also would allow people to buy private, supplemental insurance. Twenty-six percent of respondents said they wanted a government insurance plan offered to all citizens, but one that doesn't compel people with private plans to use it, a system sometimes called a "public option." A small minority of 15 percent of voters said they wanted the government to completely remove itself from paying for health care, while another 14 percent said they want to keep the existing health care system intact.

What they want exactly does indeed vary.
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First of all, keep in mind that there is a difference between wanting to change the system and wanting to change your own circumstances.

From: https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx
...solid majorities of Americans rate the coverage (69%) and quality (80%) of the healthcare they personally receive as "excellent" or "good." By contrast, Americans are much less positive about healthcare in the U.S. in general...

The previous poster stated:
Yeah, people are willing to give up their health care... Dream on

I think what is happening is that people want the government to be sympathetic to the disadvantaged, to provide for those who can't get their own health care... they just don't want the status quo to change for THEMSELVES.

Telling people "I will help the poor with their health care but you won't be affected" will be an easier argument to make than "I'm going to change YOUR health care while I help the poor".
 
You know what happened, right? All this Trumpster/Bernie Bro bickering inspired someone to declare "a plague on both your houses!" and corona virus was born.
 
Segnosaur said:
First of all, keep in mind that there is a difference between wanting to change the system and wanting to change your own circumstances.

From: https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx
...solid majorities of Americans rate the coverage (69%) and quality (80%) of the healthcare they personally receive as "excellent" or "good." By contrast, Americans are much less positive about healthcare in the U.S. in general...

The previous poster stated:
Yeah, people are willing to give up their health care... Dream on

I think what is happening is that people want the government to be sympathetic to the disadvantaged, to provide for those who can't get their own health care... they just don't want the status quo to change for THEMSELVES.

Telling people "I will help the poor with their health care but you won't be affected" will be an easier argument to make than "I'm going to change YOUR health care while I help the poor".
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The reason there is as much traction as there is for some kind of UHC plan is because it is not only traditionally poor people struggling with health care and insurance issues anymore.

The aggravation has reached through poor, to "working poor", "lower middle class", and even some who could arguably be called "middle class".

If it were just the poor that were unsatisfied with these outcomes, it would not be anyones' main platform plank.
 
Distracted1 said:
Would Sanders lose your support if the polls change?
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Of course not. I might switch my vote to Warren if I thought she had more momentum, but I'd still support what Sanders proposes.

If next Monday, the polls show him losing to Trump in the EC, does that make him a worse candidate?
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Obviously it depends on the definition of "worse". I'll tell you one thing, and if you really want to make this analogous between me and dudalb, this is the relevant analogy: If Sanders starts losing in the polls to Trump I won't go into denial over it like dudalb.
 
dudalb said:
Although they, of course,deny it, varaints of the lost tribe theory are the mainstay of the scenarios the Berniebros have for Bernie winning in November.
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Funny, seems like high voter turnout and GOTV efforts are the mainstay of every general Democratic Party election strategy in modern political history, but when Bernie does it it's somehow different and scorn-worthy.

The strategy of small turnout boosts in demographics that have historically supported the Democratic Party isn't some "lost tribe" conspiracy. It's ordinary electoral politics.

Nobody thinks a bunch of closet lefties are going to descend on the polls and win this thing for Bernie. His messaging is targeting the exact demographics that have been long understood to be the natural Democratic voters.
 
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Segnosaur said:
But, lets say you're a middle-class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer, and your job is pretty stable. You have no problem getting treatment when you want it, waiting lists are relatively short, and because its payed for by your employer, you never worry about cost.
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Assuming that all of your costs are covered, and assuming what you're suffering from is covered by your insurance, and assuming that there are healthcare providers in your area who not only can deal with what you're suffering from but who are also covered by your insurance.

After all, the job of any insurance agency isn't to pay out money.
 
One part of Trump's platform when he won was universal health care for less cost than the non-universal mess we have now... clear proof that you can't win while campaigning with that albatross around your neck.
 
Delvo said:
One part of Trump's platform when he won was universal health care for less cost than the non-universal mess we have now... clear proof that you can't win while campaigning with that albatross around your neck.
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I saw that more as a convenient talking point for Trumpsters and apologists to latch onto as evidence he's better than Clinton and all that crap, only to call it socialism when the other side calls for it.

I never thought of the promise of great healthcare as a major reason Trump got elected, but Trumpers ought to be reminded of that.
 
Segnosaur said:
Keep in mind that for some Americans, there health care IS the best in the world.

Now, I'm not defending the American system as a whole... it definitely needs major reforms.

But, lets say you're a middle-class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer, and your job is pretty stable. You have no problem getting treatment when you want it, waiting lists are relatively short, and because its payed for by your employer, you never worry about cost.

Along comes Sanders, and says "I'm going to take that away from you and replace it with something else". A system that is known to cause delays and waiting lists in the other major country that has tried it. Even if its better for the country as a whole, your personal circumstances might differ. So even if that voter didn't like Trump and were thinking of voting against him in 2020, a certain amount of self-preservation may kick in.
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In the old days, people had employer provided health care like that. It's not true now.

But your point is valid people have been convinced universal health care has all those problems when it does not.

OTOH, the ACA is a good option if the GOP rollbacks are eliminated. And maybe it needs a little tweaking. But what Sanders believes will happen will not. And it is not the best solution.

I wish Warren would walk back some of her statements about eliminating all private insurance but I think she'll be more rational about it when elected.

We have to be careful that Bernie doesn't blow it so we don't take the Senate back and we get 4 more years of Trump on top of that because too many voters fear his brand of socialism.
 
theprestige said:
The job of every insurance company is literally to pay out money.
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No, it isn't. It's every insurance company's job to make money for the people who own it. They do so by paying out as little money as they can get away with.
 
theprestige said:
The job of every insurance company is literally to pay out money.
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The purpose of any private for-profit enterprise is to earn as much money as possible to the owners of said enterprise. For insurance companies this means paying out as little money as they can possibly get away with.

(ETA: In other words what dann said...)
 
Segnosaur said:
But, lets say you're a middle-class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer, and your job is pretty stable. You have no problem getting treatment when you want it, waiting lists are relatively short, and because its payed for by your employer, you never worry about cost.
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Even for the people for which the system is working, it's quite precarious.

The situation you describe is not the reality for very many people.

You're a middle class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer. You thought your job was stable, but the instability of the financial crisis has you second guessing that. You've seen good employees laid off and lose their health insurance. You've seen older employees forced into early retirement prior to their eligibility age for medicare. You've seen young workers staying onto their parents plans well into their mid 20's because they can't find jobs that provide care. You've seen sick workers trying to game out FMLA and disability policies so they don't get laid off and have to pay their own premiums while unable to work. You realize that a business decision to lay off workers means you could lose your health insurance overnight.

You've been told, year after year, that exploding health costs means there won't be a pay raise. You've been told that your plan that used to be 100% employer paid is now going to shift some premiums onto you. Every year there's more pressure to shift more of the premiums to the employee. You've gone from a PPO plan with copay to a high deductible plan over the last few years. Your high deductible has doubled and, a couple years later, doubled again. You thought you had figured out how to use your plan, but every few years it seems like the rules and networks change, and any mistake could mean a huge medical bill.

The only people I know that have medical plans they actually like are government employees with old-school union negotiated health care, and these health care plans are usually the crown jewel of the compensation for these jobs. The high deductible plan is becoming the new standard for private industry, and it sucks.
 
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