Should we fear Bernie?

[PhantomWolf]

And you can't just outlaw Insurance companies...you have to pay the stockholders fair market value..something the Berniebros forget.

You are right, you don't have to outlaw them, but you don't have to pay them out either, you just have to make them irrelevant in the marketplace. If people can get all their non-elective medical needs and prescriptions at either no cost at the time of use, or a minimal charge, then why would they bother paying thousands of dollars for insurance that they no longer need?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Can't you just let them continue? When there's free health care for all, insurance companies won't have many customers left, so the majority of them will just go broke on their own and their stocks will plummet. I see no reason why it would be necessary to outlaw them.

This. Evolution of Business, the marketplace changes and businesses have to adapt or go bust.

 

[3point14]

Nope it's called in the US the Government cannot seize your property without just compensation (except in criminal cases).
You seem not to know very much about the way the US works,really.

What would they be seizing?

 

[dann]

This. Evolution of Business, the marketplace changes and businesses have to adapt or go bust.

Covid-19 may ruin them before free health care does ...

 

[Delvo]

If people can get all their non-elective medical needs and prescriptions at either no cost at the time of use, or a minimal charge, then why would they bother paying thousands of dollars for insurance that they no longer need?

Because then it's their "CHOICE"!!! They get to "CHOOOOOOOSE" to throw all that extra money away for "coverage" that will always look for ways to avoid covering them!!!

Can't you just let them continue? When there's free health care for all, insurance companies won't have many customers left, so the majority of them will just go broke on their own and their stocks will plummet. I see no reason why it would be necessary to outlaw them.

You are right, you don't have to outlaw them... you just have to make them irrelevant in the marketplace.

They don't need to be banned, but their defenders do need to pretend they'd be banned.

 

[lobosrul5]

This. Evolution of Business, the marketplace changes and businesses have to adapt or go bust.

You can probably find dozens of examples of federal or state law having a negative impact on a business, ie outlawing what they sell, with no recompense. Prohibition is the easiest one to find. Distillery, vineyards, and brewery's were not compensated. They were free to use their resources to make other products. Just like healthcare insurance co's are free to start selling other types of insurance.

 

[lobosrul5]

Because then it's their "CHOICE"!!! They get to "CHOOOOOOOSE" to throw all that extra money away for "coverage" that will always look for ways to avoid covering them!!!

Even in the UK, as I understand it, going "private" does exist. There will be a market for extra special good service. Google is telling me its 10.5% in the UK.

 

[dann]

Even in the UK, as I understand it, going "private" does exist. There will be a market for extra special good service. Google is telling me its 10.5% in the UK.

Here in Denmark, too! And it's usually for the special stuff that's not covered by the state: dental, hearing aids, glasses ... health insurance

ETA: I can see that this particular one doesn't cover dental. And I should probably add that state covers part of the amount for dental and hearing aids. For the latter DKR 4,000,- (approximately $ 600, I think) every four years. State health care also sometimes sends people to private clinics when it's cheaper or waiting lists are too long.

 

[Segnosaur]

Lots of them are thinking about changing their mind. Its PA/MI/WI where Bernie can flip the election. His weakness is Florida. He's just about killed any chance he has there unfortunately.

Not all Democrats in Florida think so:

Krishnaiyer conceded Sanders would have a tough time in the parts of Miami-Dade County where anti-socialism sentiments are strongest among Hispanic and Latino voters. But most pundits are overlooking the voters Sanders could attract, he said.
“He has an ability to talk to white people in Polk, Pasco and Volusia counties that have gotten further and further away from Democrats in recent years,” Krishnaiyer said. “Those are working class communities. I think what Sanders can do is connect with white working class people who voted for Obama in 2008 and voted for Mitt Romney and then Trump. That’s where I see his potential.”

(Tampa Bay Times, Feb. 25, 2020)

Isn't that just another version of the "lost tribes" argument?

"Yes, his support may look marginal, but he will bring in all these people that wouldn't normally vote Democrat, as if by magic".

 

[Segnosaur]

Even in the UK, as I understand it, going "private" does exist. There will be a market for extra special good service. Google is telling me its 10.5% in the UK.

Actually, pretty much every western country allows private coverage. Even such left-wing bastions as sweden and Finland have private coverage.

The only major western country that seems to have gone all-government payed insurance is Canada, and that's only for basic health care (i.e. not including dental or eye care). Sanders plan would definitely put it as perhaps the most radical/extreme in the western world, for both the range of services covered, and for outlawing private insurance.

(And, for some strange reason, Canada often shows up near the bottom in health care rankings.)

 

[lobosrul5]

Actually, pretty much every western country allows private coverage. Even such left-wing bastions as sweden and Finland have private coverage.

The only major western country that seems to have gone all-government payed insurance is Canada, and that's only for basic health care (i.e. not including dental or eye care). Sanders plan would definitely put it as perhaps the most radical/extreme in the western world, for both the range of services covered, and for outlawing private insurance.

(And, for some strange reason, Canada often shows up near the bottom in health care rankings.)

Taking a note from theprestige's "playbook", anyone who thinks Bernie is going to get this super radical cover everything, no private option plan, is delusional. That's not how getting bills passed works. Even if the Dems take control of the Senate it will be by a small amount. They'll need to placate the more moderate D Senators. Of which there are at least 10. The step below his plan would be MFA, paid thru taxes, but still allow optional private. Another step, an optional public plan that anyone can pay into. Which IMO is the most likely outcome.

 

[Segnosaur]

Taking a note from theprestige's "playbook", anyone who thinks Bernie is going to get this super radical cover everything, no private option plan, is delusional. That's not how getting bills passed works. Even if the Dems take control of the Senate it will be by a small amount. They'll need to placate the more moderate D Senators. Of which there are at least 10. The step below his plan would be MFA, paid thru taxes, but still allow optional private. Another step, an optional public plan that anyone can pay into. Which IMO is the most likely outcome.

Oh, I agree, Sanders is unlikely to get BernieCare passed.

The problem is, he still has to defend it during the federal election, against the republicans who will talk about "death panels" and waiting lists. And lets face it, much of the electorate is not too smart... not everyone is going to be paying attention to how congress will impact Sander's plans.

And even if someone did recognize that the chance of getting BernieCare passed was small... they may still be hesitant to support Sanders because:
1) Even a small chance of success may be too much for them to risk
2) They may have a fear that Sanders will forgo a mixed public/private plan because he's too ideologically attached to BernieCare.

 

[lobosrul5]

Oh, I agree, Sanders is unlikely to get BernieCare passed.

The problem is, he still has to defend it during the federal election, against the republicans who will talk about "death panels" and waiting lists. And lets face it, much of the electorate is not too smart... not everyone is going to be paying attention to how congress will impact Sander's plans.

And even if someone did recognize that the chance of getting BernieCare passed was small... they may still be hesitant to support Sanders because:
1) Even a small chance of success may be too much for them to risk
2) They may have a fear that Sanders will forgo a mixed public/private plan because he's too ideologically attached to BernieCare.

I think so many people have had negative experiences with the current system that they're just ready for something, anything, to come along and fix it. As far as people who would have the slightest inclination to vote Dem, not many are going to be scared by "BernieCare"... a major CoronaVirus outbreak with tens of millions of people hitting their max yearly payout for their HC plan would kinda seal the deal. For a family that can be a 5 digit number.

...other parts of his platform might scare people though, I don't doubt that.

 

[Elagabalus]

Oh, I agree, Sanders is unlikely to get BernieCare passed.

The problem is, he still has to defend it during the federal election, against the republicans who will talk about "death panels" and waiting lists. And lets face it, much of the electorate is not too smart... not everyone is going to be paying attention to how congress will impact Sander's plans.

And even if someone did recognize that the chance of getting BernieCare passed was small... they may still be hesitant to support Sanders because:
1) Even a small chance of success may be too much for them to risk
2) They may have a fear that Sanders will forgo a mixed public/private plan because he's too ideologically attached to BernieCare.

Or they think he's like Trump and it's all just bluster.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I think so many people have had negative experiences with the current system that they're just ready for something, anything, to come along and fix it.

I regularly interact with people who seem to sincerely believe that US healthcare is the best in the world and that socialised healthcare not only couldn't possibly work in the US, but that it's infinitely inferior and more expensive.

 

[lobosrul5]

I regularly interact with people who seem to sincerely believe that US healthcare is the best in the world and that socialised healthcare not only couldn't possibly work in the US, but that it's infinitely inferior and more expensive.

I've interacted with a few like that, but none would vote Democrat no matter what anyways. Actually, a few conversations have gone as follows: yeah we pay more, and I'm sure things are great in Europe but they dont have the "blacks".

 

[Segnosaur]

I think so many people have had negative experiences with the current system that they're just ready for something, anything, to come along and fix it.

I think so many people have had negative experiences with the current system that they're just ready for something, anything, to come along and fix it.
I regularly interact with people who seem to sincerely believe that US healthcare is the best in the world and that socialised healthcare not only couldn't possibly work in the US, but that it's infinitely inferior and more expensive.

Keep in mind that for some Americans, there health care IS the best in the world.

Now, I'm not defending the American system as a whole... it definitely needs major reforms.

But, lets say you're a middle-class white collar worker in the suburbs. Your health care is covered by your employer, and your job is pretty stable. You have no problem getting treatment when you want it, waiting lists are relatively short, and because its payed for by your employer, you never worry about cost.

Along comes Sanders, and says "I'm going to take that away from you and replace it with something else". A system that is known to cause delays and waiting lists in the other major country that has tried it. Even if its better for the country as a whole, your personal circumstances might differ. So even if that voter didn't like Trump and were thinking of voting against him in 2020, a certain amount of self-preservation may kick in.

 

[dudalb]

Isn't that just another version of the "lost tribes" argument?

"Yes, his support may look marginal, but he will bring in all these people that wouldn't normally vote Democrat, as if by magic".

Although they, of course,deny it, varaints of the lost tribe theory are the mainstay of the scenarios the Berniebros have for Bernie winning in November.

 

[dudalb]

I think so many people have had negative experiences with the current system that they're just ready for something, anything, to come along and fix it. As far as people who would have the slightest inclination to vote Dem, not many are going to be scared by "BernieCare"... a major CoronaVirus outbreak with tens of millions of people hitting their max yearly payout for their HC plan would kinda seal the deal. For a family that can be a 5 digit number.

...other parts of his platform might scare people though, I don't doubt that.

Yeah, people are willing to give up their health care, whatever problems they might have with it, for something which nobody really knows what will replace it.
Dream on.

 

[lobosrul5]

Yeah, people are willing to give up their health care, whatever problems they might have with it, for something which nobody really knows what will replace it.
Dream on.

I aint dreaming. Most Americans are dissatisfied with the current system and want something else. Polling data supports that.

The most popular option, at 32 percent, consisted of a universal, government-operated system that also would allow people to buy private, supplemental insurance.

Twenty-six percent of respondents said they wanted a government insurance plan offered to all citizens, but one that doesn't compel people with private plans to use it, a system sometimes called a "public option."

A small minority of 15 percent of voters said they wanted the government to completely remove itself from paying for health care, while another 14 percent said they want to keep the existing health care system intact.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-ame...want-the-government-to-provide-healthcare-for

What they want exactly does indeed vary.