Should we fear Bernie?

Hercules56 said:
Bernie's been in government for a few decades now. He seems like a nice guy who's never been able to do much with his ideas.

But happens if he wins? What happens if all of his ideas suddenly are backed by major power?

Millenials don't remember the evils of Socialism but many Gen Xers and Boomers do. We remember the Gulags, the Berlin Wall, the Khmer Rouge, the barbed wire, the purges, the brutally put down revolutions.

Bernie's supporters say "oh no, that wouldn't happen here, this time it will be peaceful, freedom-loving Socialism".

Well I've read the agenda of the DSA, which Bernie is a member of. They want to destroy capitalism, end national borders. They want to put the means of production and industry and wealth into the hands of "The People", which means mass-nationalization of industry, corporations, banks, the engines of commerce.

Every national manifestation of Socialism that the world has ever seen, has been an economic disaster, a human rights disaster, or both. Do we really want to give it another shot????
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This is a Poe, right?

Nobody has this poor a grasp on reality.
 
From the perspective of a Dane, Sanders is by no means a socialist. If he was in the Danish parliament he would be just left of the centre.

We have actual socialists in our parliament. Like in "take over means of production" socialists. Sanders is a capitalist in their eyes.
 
Hercules56 said:
Did you see the video of the Bernie campaign organizer in Iowa who called for gulags and reeducation camps?
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Whoah, Synchronicity! I actually DID see that video! Do you know how I found myself down that particular rat hole? From the Above Top Secret forum. Let THAT sink in. Btw, can't remember seeing anything about gulags and re-education camps just something generic about violence or some such.
 
uke2se said:
If Sanders wins the nomination and you don't vote for him in November, you are helping Trump get re-elected. Then it'll be your fault.
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Exactly. If you want Trump gone then it doesn't matter if the Dems put up a Goat for Nomination, you go and vote, and vote straight Dem across the board.
 
Even though facts are clearly unimportant in this thread: https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialist-not-communist-heres-difference-1485478

Many right-wing critics have argued that the ideas espoused by Sanders and other democratic socialists in Congress would lead to the collapse of the U.S. economy, and transform the country into a struggling state similar to South America's Venezuela. However, Botting and Cohen said this assessment was inaccurate, pointing out that Sanders' proposals align more closely with those already implemented by wealthy northern European countries.

"Sanders, like Elizabeth Warren, is far closer to Scandinavia than to Venezuela on his democratic socialist proposals, such as 'Medicare for all,'" Botting said.

Cohen said that Sanders' policies are "closer to those in Sweden than in Venezuela or anywhere in the communist world." She pointed out that this would easily be understood by "anyone in Europe."

"But the U.S. never had social democracy, so Americans don't understand this," the professor said.
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Speaking as someone who lived in Europe until a week or two ago (curse you, Cameron!), I agree. Sanders' positions are easy to understand, are implemented throughout Europe and the UK, and have not led to gulags or purges.

I must confess, though, that I never tire of seeing Americans freak out about this stuff.
 
Hercules56 said:
I'm concerned.
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I used to be concerned, but I've learned to stop worrying (and love the Bern).

I think you probably know that bringing up extreme bogeymen like the Khmer Rouge isn't really within the realm of possibility. We already have a man in the Oval Office who would be terrifying if his power were unchecked. Fortunately it is somewhat checked in the short term but not forever. The longer he stays in office, the more his power will grow.

Bernie isn't really a Stalinist if you are worried about that, but even if he were, we'll have congress and the courts and the free press to push back against any wackier ideas he might have. And if he really is the bogey man you fear, then we can vote him out again in 4 years. I think a second Trump term is the bigger threat.
 
Oh, conservatives, you have so many silly fears. Socialism, coloured people, poor people, homosexuals, drugs, premartial sex, etc. No wonder you can't fit climate change and demagoguery onto your list.
 
I’m on Quora a lot, and I’m still amazed at how many folks on the right still manage to conflate Socialism with either Soviet-style Communism or even the “National Socialism” of the Nazis.
Very few people currently are aware that the Socialist party was very strong in America in the 20s and 30s, and that a number of major cities had socialist mayors.

Of course, such conflation is actively promoted by the Republicans.
 
erlando said:
From the perspective of a Dane, Sanders is by no means a socialist. If he was in the Danish parliament he would be just left of the centre.

We have actual socialists in our parliament. Like in "take over means of production" socialists. Sanders is a capitalist in their eyes.
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As a Danish take-over-the-means-of-producton socialist, I agree!

Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Even though facts are clearly unimportant in this thread: https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialist-not-communist-heres-difference-1485478

Many right-wing critics have argued that the ideas espoused by Sanders and other democratic socialists in Congress would lead to the collapse of the U.S. economy, and transform the country into a struggling state similar to South America's Venezuela. However, Botting and Cohen said this assessment was inaccurate, pointing out that Sanders' proposals align more closely with those already implemented by wealthy northern European countries.

"Sanders, like Elizabeth Warren, is far closer to Scandinavia than to Venezuela on his democratic socialist proposals, such as 'Medicare for all,'" Botting said.

Cohen said that Sanders' policies are "closer to those in Sweden than in Venezuela or anywhere in the communist world." She pointed out that this would easily be understood by "anyone in Europe."

"But the U.S. never had social democracy, so Americans don't understand this," the professor said.
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Speaking as someone who lived in Europe until a week or two ago (curse you, Cameron!), I agree. Sanders' positions are easy to understand, are implemented throughout Europe and the UK, and have not led to gulags or purges.

I must confess, though, that I never tire of seeing Americans freak out about this stuff.
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I made a thread about that: Denmark = Venezuela?!.
 
I fear that Bernie is not radical enough. I hear a rumor that he only plans to crucify his political enemies after they are dead, not before.

The Bernie red-baiting is absurd on its face. Bernie's most radical proposals put him somewhere in soc-dem territory at best.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
That's right. There's no room between our current right-wing austerity hellworld and authoritarian communism.

Unionized minorities are currently building guillotines in state owned factories just for Bernie.
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No but they are divisive confrontation ******** who don't want to here any opposing ideas. So, yeah...
 
rockysmith76 said:
The European Union is hardly thriving, they have their own problems outside your fantasy world.
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The EU is the second largest economy in the world. The US is third. If the EU isn't thriving, then I pity the poor US. I'm sure the EU will send you some aid if you need it.
 
rockysmith76 said:
The European Union is hardly thriving, they have their own problems outside your fantasy world.
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I see what you mean.

Risking making the lives of a very, very large number of Americans who are currently struggling, in the richest country in the world, isn't really worth the risk if one of the potential outcomes is..


checks notes


"Not exactly thriving".

Not worth the risk, I guess.
 
Bob001 said:
Let's not go overboard. America has a terrible civil rights record, but nothing is worse than slavery.
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That's the point Bob. Slavery did not end with the 14th Amendment and the proclamation emancipation. They found ways to enslave blacks calling it something else, They either worked for subsistence wages or they risked being arrested for vagrancy and being forced to work to pay their fine and fare in the jail/prison.

This is why reparations is not some kind of gift. We would be paying not only for slavery but the institutional discrimination that held people of color back for the following 100 plus years. .
 
Bikewer said:
I’m on Quora a lot, and I’m still amazed at how many folks on the right still manage to conflate Socialism with either Soviet-style Communism or even the “National Socialism” of the Nazis.
Very few people currently are aware that the Socialist party was very strong in America in the 20s and 30s, and that a number of major cities had socialist mayors.

Of course, such conflation is actively promoted by the Republicans.
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The socialist movement got so popular in North Dakota that their state's democratic party, the D-NPL, is actually a merger between the state's socialist party (the Non-Partisan League) and the Democratic party. North Dakota also still has the state-operated bank and grain mill that were established by the NPL when it was at its height.

When most Americans think of socialism, they're not likely to think of North Dakota, but girlfriend loves to talk about how it's the most socialist state in the country between the above and how the state's economy is driven mostly by farm and energy subsidies.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
The Bernie red-baiting is absurd on its face. Bernie's most radical proposals put him somewhere in soc-dem territory at best.
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That's the idea. As along as people keep making unfounded accusations about Democratic candidates, similar accusations against Republican candidates will also seem unfounded, even if they aren't, because bothsidesism.

Say Trump is going to kick a puppy. If you're a Trump supporter, you don't reassure people he's not going to kick the puppy, because he damn well will and everyone knows it. Instead, you yell and scream and make bitchy little forum threads about Elizabeth Warren drowning kittens, and make her supporters deny it, which makes the relatively tame puppy kicking accusation sound ever so slightly more baseless.

Then Trump does kick the puppy, and you deliberately forget about all of this and blithely respond that of course everyone knew he was going to kick it, if people had such a problem with it why didn't they bring it up earlier?
 
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