Should Ukraine give up?

[jimbob]

Giving up would be little more than escaping the frying pan just so they can set up housekeeping in the fire. May as well fry as long as you can and and let the fire burn itself out from lack of fuel.

Yup.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Can Ukraine give-up and remain an independent democratic country?

If Russia's stated aims mean anything at all (by no means is that certain), then definitely not. ISTM it's an equivalent existential threat to the one Russia feels it faces from the spread of democracy; its borders and population may survive, but politically it won't exist as the same nation.

Dave

 

[dudalb]

Red Dawn is a romantic notion that starts with an absurd premise and solves it in typical Hollywood feelgood fashion.

I know, but it's alot of silly fun.
And, frankly,I am in the mood to see Russians getting their butts kickec.

 

[dudalb]

If Russia's stated aims mean anything at all (by no means is that certain), then definitely not. ISTM it's an equivalent existential threat to the one Russia feels it faces from the spread of democracy; its borders and population may survive, but politically it won't exist as the same nation.

Dave

The real problem is given Putin's history of lying and breaking his word, how the hell can Ukraine trust him?

 

[dudalb]

He is already trying to do that, and failing miserably

Just to give some perspective,

The USA had about 2,500 soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan over 10 years
The Soviet Union lost about 15,000 in Afghanistan over 10 years
There are already 4,000 Russian soldiers dead in this invasion, in less than three weeks.

Guarenteed, if that deal was made within six months the Russians would move back in.
Remember Hitler invading Czechslovakis six months after he promised not to do so in the Munich agreement.

 

[Michel H]

Can Ukraine give-up and remain an independent democratic country?

The answer to this question is perhaps "yes".

Pravda.ru, a pro-Kremlin news website (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda.ru), said 3 days ago:

Russia to Ukraine: Do as we say, and all will end
...
Russia will stop the operation under the following conditions:
- Ukraine must recognise Crimea as Russian territory;
- Ukraine must recognise the independence of the DPR and the LPR;
- Ukraine should amend the Constitution and abandon its claims to join "any bloc."

(https://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/150614-russia_ukraine/)
(DPR and LPR are of course the so-called people's republics of Donbass).

It seems to me that Ukraine could easily accept the first two conditions without pain. As to NATO, it could agree not to join for (at least) five years, and longer if relations with Russia improve. It can also offer (with its allies) a lifting of the massive sanctions imposed on Russia, and a resumption of fresh water supply to Crimea (https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...dam-that-blocked-water-crimea-ria-2022-02-26/).

Israel has been clever enough to keep a good relationship with Russia, but this was unfortunately not the course of action chosen by Ukraine.

It would be interesting to know what the former pro-Russian president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) thinks about the Russian invasion of his country. He does have a Twitter account: https://twitter.com/Yanukovych_VF, but unfortunately it is currently suspended.

This is an example of Western (not Russian) censorship ...

 

[junkshop]

...It would be interesting to know what the former pro-Russian president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) thinks about the Russian invasion of his country. He does have a Twitter account: https://twitter.com/Yanukovych_VF, but unfortunately it is currently suspended.

This is an example of Western (not Russian) censorship ...

No, it's an example of somone suffering the consequences of breaching the agreed TOS of a publicly traded company.

 

[dudalb]

At current exchange rates, what's that worth in Monopoly Money?

I can see the ruble dropping to the level of the mark in Weimar Germans in 1923..you know there A billion marks could not buy you a cup of coffee

 

[smartcooky]

I don't think Afghanistan gives a good perspective. Engagements in a counter insurgency are going to be much smaller affairs than engagements between peer mechanized forces.

He still has to deal with those numbers at home. You can't lie to the parents of a dead soldier, and this invasion appears to be deeply unpopular in Russia.

 

[Michel H]

No, it's an example of somone suffering the consequences of breaching the agreed TOS of a publicly traded company.

Can you prove it? (Hiroshima wasn't destroyed by Russia, you know).

I would personally be interested in knowing what Yanukovych thinks, expressed in a free way, not "corrected" by U.S. censors (and I suspect many people would be interested too).

The disgraced ex-President Viktor Yanukovych, who lives in Russia since being ousted in 2014, asks President Volodymyr Zelensky to “overcome his pride” and stop the war at any cost. Yanukovych’s letter to Zelensky was published by the Russian media.

(https://kyivindependent.com/uncategorized/yanukovych-addresses-zelensky-urges-him-to-stop-fighting/)

 

[jimbob]

I can see the ruble dropping to the level of the mark in Weimar Germans in 1923..you know there A billion marks could not buy you a cup of coffee

I guess it would be difficult to fund a war of conquest and maintain one's weapon systems in such a situation.

I keep hoping but it's not there yet

 

[Michel H]

ANybody speculate as to why Michale H has such apassion for defending dictators like Hitler and PUtin.

I am just trying to be objective, and to help provide a solution.

It seems to me it is a curious aspect of human personality, that many people seem to prefer dying for a dubious cause than using their brains.

I believe that Putin's aggression against Ukraine is a crime with attenuating circumstances.

 

[ginjawarrior]

Can you prove it? (Hiroshima wasn't destroyed by Russia, you know).

I would personally be interested in knowing what Yanukovych thinks, )

Yankovych the Russian puppet that Ukrainian hated so much they over threw him twice?


Yeah let's give him credit on what he thinks is good for Ukraine.,....

 

[junkshop]

...It would be interesting to know what the former pro-Russian president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) thinks about the Russian invasion of his country. He does have a Twitter account: https://twitter.com/Yanukovych_VF, but unfortunately it is currently suspended.

This is an example of Western (not Russian) censorship ...

No, it's an example of somone suffering the consequences of breaching the agreed TOS of a publicly traded company.

Can you prove it? (Hiroshima wasn't destroyed by Russia, you know)...

What?

 

[Darat]

What?

"You did a bad thing in the past so you can't condemn this new bad thing"

 

[ZirconBlue]

At current exchange rates, what's that worth in Monopoly Money?

A Monopoly game is around $20, which is 2670 Rubles at current exchange rates, and contains 20,580 Monopoly Dollars. So, 10 Rubles is about $77 in Monopoly money.

 

[junkshop]

"You did a bad thing in the past so you can't condemn this new bad thing"

I've never even heard of this 'Hiroshima' you speak of.

I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.

ETA: Oh, and by the way Michel, regarding this:

Can you prove it?...

Following your link to his twitter account:

Account suspended
Twitter suspends accounts which violate the Twitter Rules. Learn more

 

[Venom]

It would be interesting to know what the former pro-Russian president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) thinks about the Russian invasion of his country. He does have a Twitter account: https://twitter.com/Yanukovych_VF, but unfortunately it is currently suspended.

This is an example of Western (not Russian) censorship ...

Let's listen to Viktor Yushchenko instead.

Former Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko says he doesn't think Putin will resort to nuclear option

 

[Vixen]

I am just trying to be objective, and to help provide a solution.

It seems to me it is a curious aspect of human personality, that many people seem to prefer dying for a dubious cause than using their brains.

I believe that Putin's aggression against Ukraine is a crime with attenuating circumstances.

This might be where your problem lies. However, I note you have inserted the word 'dubious' to qualify your statement, which indicates you do understand perfectly well why people fight for their country.

 

[jimbob]

Do not personalise this thread

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob