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Should the F-35 be scrapped?

But is there any problem that 2 fighters with 9,000 pounds of ordinance and 2,000 vulcan rounds can solve that can't be solved with 4 lightly armed drones properly positioned?

One ton bombs are for tank columns, not insurgent fighting. I mean yes, in the field, it is comforting to put 3,000 pounds of explosives on your target, but I question the necessity.

Also, UAVs can be used as artillery spotters. Good 120 mile artillery and spotters is a much better, and much cheaper package.
Your "properly positioned" is an assumption of non trivial consequence.

How much time to I have, and how far away is the airborne support? If I am calling for fire, who determined ahead of time that "properly positioned" meant that morning?

Your cheaper is better is not well done (though there is merit in the idea), considering the dispersed battlefield and time as a criterion for success.

Likewise, the 9,000 lbs of ordnance (what, four GBU 31's? sixteen GBU-12's?) plus a half ton of ammo for rockets and guns ... what mission was assigned for that loadout?
 
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No.

It is likely the last manned fighter/fighter bomber the US will build, however. The point of diminishing returns has probably been reached, in terms of the tradeoffs and benefits that one has to make, engineering and performance wise, for a manned tactical aircraft.

DR

Go Robots!
 
The vast majority of military spending is personnel costs, not equipment. And wasn't a big criticism of Bush that he failed to get the troops the latest and best equipment? I don't see how sticking with an aging and increasingly obsolete aircraft fleet is good for protection of our personnel.

It seemed to be less about the latest and best, and rather getting basic armor and such.
 
Your "properly positioned" is an assumption of non trivial consequence.

How much time to I have, and how far away is the airborne support? If I am calling for fire, who determined ahead of time that "properly positioned" meant that morning?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that following patrol routes is always a good definition of properly positioned.

I mean it's not like our bases get attacked often (as in ever) so it's only when soldiers leave them they're in danger, hence you could easily use a few UAVs to be in range of any given patrol route, while easily costing less than fighters being scrambled from an air field far away.


Your cheaper is better is not well done (though there is merit in the idea), considering the dispersed battlefield and time as a criterion for success.
Modern artillery repositions itself very quickly, though flight time is most certainly a concern (moving after calling in an artillery strike is a risky proposition). I'm unsure how much of a concern, as if a building is occupied, artillery repositioning and firing is going to beat fighter jets nine times out of ten, and the building in question is not going anywhere. Close air support A10 or Hind style is out of the question with artillery, obviously, but UAVs seem to do that just fine.



Likewise, the 9,000 lbs of ordnance (what, four GBU 31's? sixteen GBU-12's?) plus a half ton of ammo for rockets and guns ... what mission was assigned for that loadout?
I have no idea. Read WildCat's post. That's the loadout he quoted for the F-15s. I'm unsure what they're doing with it, destroying tank depots? Hitting an entire column? Reducing multiple city blocks to rubble? It seems like overkill of the highest order. The 500 lb bombs aren't that bad, but the 1-ton suckers seem... excessive... for insurgents.
 
Cost isn't the only factor when considering the requirements of a means to respond to a call for fire (which is what CAS is, a form of airborne fires.) Response time, and controllability of the engagement are also important, else we'd have gone back to the much cheaper missiles, tube artillery, and mortars ages ago.

Reaper and Preadator class UAV's have no dash speed. Typical CAS vehicles do. Time, and response time, is a critical commodity on the modern battlefield.

Both of those are pretty much still reconnaissance designs with a couple of missiles strapped on (in the case of the Predator very much) .The General Atomics Avenger (did someone play too much fallout before coming up with that name?) is moveing in the dirrection of higher speed.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that following patrol routes is always a good definition of properly positioned.
A good way to get an F-117 shot down, for example. :D
I mean it's not like our bases get attacked often (as in ever) so it's only when soldiers leave them they're in danger, hence you could easily use a few UAVs to be in range of any given patrol route, while easily costing less than fighters being scrambled from an air field far away. Modern artillery repositions itself very quickly, though flight time is most certainly a concern (moving after calling in an artillery strike is a risky proposition). I'm unsure how much of a concern, as if a building is occupied, artillery repositioning and firing is going to beat fighter jets nine times out of ten, and the building in question is not going anywhere. Close air support A10 or Hind style is out of the question with artillery, obviously, but UAVs seem to do that just fine.
Artillery, at the moment, has the problem in the current fight with high CD, so many missions it could support don't get called. Risk of CD to high.
That's the loadout he quoted for the F-15s. I'm unsure what they're doing with it, destroying tank depots? Hitting an entire column?
Supporting a three day fight at An Najaf, 2004. F-15's did great, as did the F-18, F-16, and attack helicopter assets. Funny old thing, UAV's weren't up to that fight. I'll not comment on other operations.
Reducing multiple city blocks to rubble?
No. That is the Bone's and the Spirit's mission, if called for.
It seems like overkill of the highest order. The 500 lb bombs aren't that bad, but the 1-ton suckers seem... excessive... for insurgents.
I respectfully disagree, having more than once been involved in weapon selection screaming matches decision making event. Your perception of the tactical utility of the GBU-31 is narrow. Depending on target and fusing, it is relatively discrete in its foot print. With no time delay and and HE warhead, on the other hand -- chutney.

Not every war, nor every phase of every war, is what Iraq is now, nor what Afghanistan is now. I'd be leary of trying to cookie cutter the current state of play when considering a requirements model, even if we are hypotheticalizing about here. (OK, probably not a word).

For example, in the weeks between leaving the LOD to Baghdad finally falling, 2003, CAS as traditionally used (fast response time, ticklish FAC to pilot comms, various restrictive fire control measures) is a finite asset with great demand from the ground commander running the close fight. The situation is not relatively static, as the current Iraq situation is, but the speed and flexibility of the autonomous pilot/flight of two/flight of four, rather than the centrally controlled UAV package, is a huge boon to the local tactical commander, where the fight is won or lost. Decentralized execution at its finest.

In 2004, which I am familiar with, Reaper was still in OpEval, so Iraq typical CAS sorties were

F-15
Tornado (limited bombs payload)
F-16
F-18

While now and again a sortie checked off of station with clean bomb racks, the vast majority dropped no, one, or two GBU-12 sized munitions. Now and again the 2000 pound load was used, but it wasn't that common. 9There was a strike, not CAS actually, on some underground hideouts near Fallujah that I recall used the bigger bomb, to good effect.) What they had over the UAV of the time was response time, man in the loop, speed, and an asset of low density/high area coverage. (They were also much less vulnerable to SAFIRE and SAM in the launch and recovery phase). By the way, the decision not to use 2000 pounders, vice 500, cost us at least one shot at killing, versus scaring, Zarqawi. So he lived another two years. :p He got a lot of people, mostly Iraqis, killed in the interim. :(

The nice thing about Pred, and now Reaper, is that an armed low speed, long dwell time (hours and hours of eyes on target, no refueling breaks, etc) set of eyes can be pre positioned. Trouble is, stuff/trouble frequently broke out Some Where Else. The ability to respond to that was modest, at best. Fast a UAV ain't. Yet.

If you begin to fill the sky with Pred/Reapers, depending on your scenario, you can overcome some of that and still lose the ability to concentrate fires the way a two ship of F-16's, not to mention F-15E's, can. That is part of the required force mix. You also begin to negate the price/cost advantage.

UAV/Predator, when I was involved with such things, though often armed were primarily ISR assets. (Intel/Surveillance/Recon) Even then, however, some of us were fighting (along with the Spec Ops sorts) to get USAF and the Joint Air Community to acknowledge UAV as a CAS asset, or at least with occasional CAS tasking. Not sure how that has since played out, since we don't assign helicopters to CAS, even though they too are airborne fires. Funny thing, a lot of our CAS sorties, while waiting for a call for fire that didn't come during that mission, were also employed in an ISR role, albeit limited in some regards.

I am no longer in the doctrine wars, so maybe I ought to peak in and see how that has played out, in published Joint Doctrine.

In a dynamic environment, I don't find the UAV model to suffice. For the static environment, where the probability of needing a concentrated strike is low, yes, armed UAV's are a great tool. Hell, that is why they have, for the past 5-10 years, been funding magnets and grown so in use. For the current condition they fit many needs.

The argument isn't either/or, manned unmanned, it's the matter of force mix.

If you make a big enough, fast enough UAV with jet power and speed, you will begin to replicate the cost profile of manned aircraft, and not see the cost savings you tried to promote on the ratios previously mentioned.

I think Geni makes a good point, and with a set of UAV's now in development that are remotely controlled, F-35 is the last of our manned fighters/fighter bombers. By the time it matures and reaches the end of its life cycle, the order of battle will have, I expect, fast, unmanned, armed UAV's.

DR
 
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Well we won't know untill someone tries it.

According to you, somebody already has:

geni said:
That depends on your tactical doctrine. Obviously the flying SAM aproach has proven less than successful but it does exist



I was more thinking what they got up to in Iraq:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123010823

Darth Roter has discussed this point far beyond I could hope. :D


X-47 and X-45 appear to have stealth as a higher priority.



F-35's come in at a bit over $80 million a time. Thats about eight times the cost of the MQ-9 Reaper which I think is the most expensive UAV actualy in use.

Wait a bit - on what evidence do you suppose the X-47 and X-45 are more prioritized for stealth than the F-35? Different looks don't exactly cut it.

Also, the Reaper is turboprop-powered. Using such an aircraft in any air-to-air capacity would be ludicrous. As Darth Roter has posted, add a reasonable jet engine and you see the costs approach manned aircraft.
 
GreyIce said:
I mean it's not like our bases get attacked often (as in ever) so it's only when soldiers leave them they're in danger, hence you could easily use a few UAVs to be in range of any given patrol route, while easily costing less than fighters being scrambled from an air field far away.

Actually, our outposts are attacked a LOT.
 
Actually, our outposts are attacked a LOT.

Really? Our actual bases in the middle of the desert are hit with much of anything worth worrying about?

I mean... how? They're 24/7 surrounded by constant electronic surveillance, claymores (at least that's what they used to do), gun emplacements, I mean what sort of idiot would go after those?

It's the definition of a suicide mission.

Or are we talking about the random 'lob a few mortar shells in the general direction, and scram' attacks? Because air support doesn't do squat against that. Only other thing I can think of is a suicide bomber in disguise, which seems rather... well... not air support?
 
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According to you, somebody already has:

USA early Vietnam. Didn't work out too well.


Wait a bit - on what evidence do you suppose the X-47 and X-45 are more prioritized for stealth than the F-35? Different looks don't exactly cut it.

http://www.mywire.com/a/AFP/Australia-concerned-latest-setback-to/1281226/

Also, the Reaper is turboprop-powered. Using such an aircraft in any air-to-air capacity would be ludicrous.

1)It's been done (the UAV lost that time)

2)Looking at how hard sri lanka found it to stop the prop driven tamil planes I wouldn't write off prop driven planes that lightly.

As Darth Roter has posted, add a reasonable jet engine and you see the costs approach manned aircraft.

Depends what you are doing and even the Phantom Ray is still looking cheaper than the F-35.

Now of course we have no idea exactly when UAVs will take over so the US and other countries have no choice but to support the F-35 as a fallback option for now.
 
Really? Our actual bases in the middle of the desert are hit with much of anything worth worrying about?

I mean... how? They're 24/7 surrounded by constant electronic surveillance, claymores (at least that's what they used to do), gun emplacements, I mean what sort of idiot would go after those?

It's the definition of a suicide mission.

Or are we talking about the random 'lob a few mortar shells in the general direction, and scram' attacks? Because air support doesn't do squat against that. Only other thing I can think of is a suicide bomber in disguise, which seems rather... well... not air support?

Michael Yon does a fairly good job accounting the attacks on British positions (well, before he was let go from the British military). The phenomenon isn't too uncommon for Americans, either:

http://www.wbur.org/2009/07/04/afghanistan-9
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/22/world/fg-afghan-attacks22
The coordinated assaults targeting a U.S. military base and government compounds kill at least six Afghan security officers, but eight insurgents die as well.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-05/13/content_11368484.htm
In the new wave of violence which targeted a U.S. military base outside Khost city, capital of Khost province in east Afghanistan, Wednesday morning, at least seven people were killed and 21 others injured. All the victims were civilians.

Some of these people are suicidal.
 

The downgrade, revealed on a Defense Department website and confirmed by Nelson on Tuesday, lowered the radio frequency signature of the fighter jet from "extremely low observable" to "very low observable".

Nothing about a comparison.


1)It's been done (the UAV lost that time)

2)Looking at how hard sri lanka found it to stop the prop driven tamil planes I wouldn't write off prop driven planes that lightly.

Modern air forces are not staffed with prop planes. If the Tigers had beaten Iraq's air defenses, I might take their equipment a little more seriously.


Depends what you are doing and even the Phantom Ray is still looking cheaper than the F-35.

Now of course we have no idea exactly when UAVs will take over so the US and other countries have no choice but to support the F-35 as a fallback option for now.

The Phantom Ray is at the very beginning of its project life cycle. We all know what happens to military cost estimates over time...;)
 
Now of course we have no idea exactly when UAVs will take over so the US and other countries defense contractors and their lobbyists have no choice but to support the F-35 as a fallback option for now.

Fixed that for you.
 
It's a pretty plane, but not stealthy and thus the last generation of fighter aircraft. More suited to South Africa than a nation needing a first-rate air force.

Yep but you see i live in Denmark and WE don't need a first-rate air force. We need planes to support our troops on UN missions, the Gripen can do that and we need a few to intercept stray planes/terrorist attacs with passenger planes, the Gripen certainly can do that too and at a considerably lower cost. The "Top Gun" days are over, at least for a considerable period.
 
Yep but you see i live in Denmark and WE don't need a first-rate air force. We need planes to support our troops on UN missions, the Gripen can do that and we need a few to intercept stray planes/terrorist attacs with passenger planes, the Gripen certainly can do that too and at a considerably lower cost. The "Top Gun" days are over, at least for a considerable period.
The Gripen is 3 times more expensive than the F-16 and doesn't carry the weapons load the F-16 does. Both fighters have similar roles, what's the advantage of the Gripen?
 
The Gripen is 3 times more expensive than the F-16 and doesn't carry the weapons load the F-16 does. Both fighters have similar roles, what's the advantage of the Gripen?

For one, it can land on public roads and is fast/easy to refuel when grounded by a small crew. That's what makes it attractive for humanitarian and peacekeeping ops. Whether this offsets the cost and possibly lesser ability in the air remains to be seen. It's hard to compare to planes that have had years and years of active combat service to any new model.
 
Let me know when we're threatened by a country with a modern-ish air force.

That's the whole goddamn point of having a huge, advanced, modern air force.

"Let other nations throw human waves against each other. We will have the best trained, best equipped troops on the planet."

Nobody even bothers. Now. Because of this massive, decades-long effort by the US.

I'll admit it's fun to imagine that things would be this way, with no threats, had the US not developed military tech. But please go make actual policies adhering to that theory in your own universe, not this one.
 
Yep but you see i live in Denmark and WE don't need a first-rate air force. We need planes to support our troops on UN missions, the Gripen can do that and we need a few to intercept stray planes/terrorist attacs with passenger planes, the Gripen certainly can do that too and at a considerably lower cost. The "Top Gun" days are over, at least for a considerable period.

Yes, and one of the reasons you don't need a first-rate force is because countries like the US have one. In a way, the conventional arms race is quite similar to MAD - if you slack, you die.

I don't think you realize what you seem to be implying when you say the "Top Gun" days are over.

Let me put it bluntly: the illusion that cutting-edge air-to-air superiority fighters are now something to be tossed at the wayside in favor of UAVs that can do CAS is completely wrong. There is always a risk of a true conventional war, one that would make these current adventures look like leaves in the wind from an aerial standpoint.

Besides that, even the comparatively "easy" air-to-air annihilation of Iraq in Gulf Wars I and II was not altogether that "easy." Iraqi pilots (or what were rumored to be Russian stand-ins) on more than one occasion successfully evaded AIM-7 Sparrows and AIM-9 Sidewinders, and several enemy planes nearly got away due to Sparrows going stupid. In the end, training and hardware holds the edge, and willfully slacking off with less can easily get people killed.

Beerina said:
That's the whole goddamn point of having a huge, advanced, modern air force.

"Let other nations throw human waves against each other. We will have the best trained, best equipped troops on the planet."

Nobody even bothers. Now. Because of this massive, decades-long effort by the US.

I'll admit it's fun to imagine that things would be this way, with no threats, had the US not developed military tech. But please go make actual policies adhering to that theory in your own universe, not this one.

QFT.
 
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That's the whole goddamn point of having a huge, advanced, modern air force.

"Let other nations throw human waves against each other. We will have the best trained, best equipped troops on the planet."

Nobody even bothers. Now. Because of this massive, decades-long effort by the US.

I'll admit it's fun to imagine that things would be this way, with no threats, had the US not developed military tech. But please go make actual policies adhering to that theory in your own universe, not this one.

To paraphrase something I read:
The entire purpose of having a military force is to appear so fierce that no one will ever try to attack you.
 
I'll admit it's fun to imagine that things would be this way, with no threats, had the US not developed military tech. But please go make actual policies adhering to that theory in your own universe, not this one.
But we both know, because you have explained the principle to me, that if the US had had no airforce whatsoever, and if private citizens had paid mercenary airmen out of their own pockets to fight or bomb whomever they chose, then military technology would be even more advanced, because competing mercenary armies would have developed better and better planes. As you know full well, if only we scrapped the socialized military, we'd have much better military tech.

How many Americans must die because socialized armies have to soldier on with inferior weapons not produced by the rigors of the free market?

Intellectually inconsistent much?
 
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