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Should steroid use be illegal?

crimresearch said:
Bodybuilders have lots of anecdotal claims about what they have or haven't seen regarding steroid abuse...

For example, I've seen tendons snap, and muscles rolled up like a window shade, on someone who went from 17" to 24" biceps in a matter of weeks, and 85lb single triceps extensions...
zCould be steroid use, could be voodoo...who's to say?;)

And 'roid rage also involves some possibly criminal behavior, making it even harder to get accurate data.


I was a little more interested in controlled studies, since (as you correctly point out) it would be important to know if a person was a violent wifebeater before abusing AAS.

So far I've not gotten any answers from our resident clinician, pharmacologist, or anyone else regarding the cited studies, much less any opinions on a possible link to Otnow-Lewis' work on CHI and violent males.
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Personally, I've always felt the whole roid rage thing was overblown. I've seen studies proporting data supporting both ends. I can believe the myocardial damage research, because there's so much of it out there. The aggression issue I haven't seen a lot of hard evidence for. Edited to add: It may just be that bodybuilders tend to be a more aggressive group, thus preselecting them for aggressive behavior.



Here are the animal studies I mentioned, btw:

Appell H, Heller-Umpenfach B, Feraudi M, Weicker H: Ultrastructural and morphometric investigations of the effects of training and administration of anabolic steroids on the myocardium of guinea pigs. Int J Sports Med 1983; 4:268-274

Ramo P: Anabolic steroids alter the hemodynamic responses of the canine left ventricle. Acta Physiol Scand 1987; 130:209-217


Here are a few more case reports involving cardiac events in young bodybuilders:

Ferenchick GS, Adelman S: Myocardial infarction associated with anabolic steroid use in a previously healthy 37-year-old weightlifter. Am Heart J 1992; 124:507-508

McNutt RA, Ferenchick GS, Kirlin PC, Hamlin NJ: Acute myocardial infarction in a 22-year-old weight lifter using anabolic steroids. Am J Cardiol 1988;62:164
 
crimresearch said:
Bodybuilders have lots of anecdotal claims about what they have or haven't seen regarding steroid abuse...

For example, I've seen tendons snap, and muscles rolled up like a window shade, on someone who went from 17" to 24" biceps in a matter of weeks, and 85lb single triceps extensions...
zCould be steroid use, could be voodoo...who's to say?;)

And 'roid rage also involves some possibly criminal behavior, making it even harder to get accurate data.


I was a little more interested in controlled studies, since (as you correctly point out) it would be important to know if a person was a violent wifebeater before abusing AAS.

So far I've not gotten any answers from our resident clinician, pharmacologist, or anyone else regarding the cited studies, much less any opinions on a possible link to Otnow-Lewis' work on CHI and violent males.
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Are you joking or what? 17" to 24" in a few weeks? haha!
 
I told you that Vince Gironda workout was impressive.:p


No, seriously, 'a matter of weeks' was 12 weeks to achieve that sort of hypertrophy in the belly of the muscle..but connective tissue takes more time to support the high weight loads, hence the detachment.
 
Does anybody have any thoughts on the use of steroids by professional woman body builders.

I watched a documentary on the sport recently. The effect of the steroids was profound. The women's voices had deepened substanstially. The most surprising effect (to me) was the way the women's heads had become masculinized. Very little if any hint remained in the women's faces that they were women and not men.

What are the long term effects on women that have heavily consumed steroids for long periods of time like these women? Could they have children if they discontinue the steroid use? Will there features and voices revert to feminine after discontinuing the steroid use? What is their lifetime expectation if they continue the steroid use? What is their lifetime expectation if they discontinue the steroid use?
 
crimresearch said:
I told you that Vince Gironda workout was impressive.:p


No, seriously, 'a matter of weeks' was 12 weeks to achieve that sort of hypertrophy in the belly of the muscle..but connective tissue takes more time to support the high weight loads, hence the detachment.
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6 inches in the width of your bicep muscle in 3 months would be an impossibility unless you had fake implants inserted into your muscles.
 
What math system are you using? Biceps are measured around, not across the width...ever heard of pi?
 
crimresearch said:
What math system are you using? Biceps are measured around, not across the width...ever heard of pi?
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Right,My mistake.

A 6 inch increase in the circumference of a Bicep in a timespam of 12 weeks is not possible without surgical implants. 6 inch increase in circumference in a span of 12 months is beyond amazing. 12 weeks? It's obvious you've never lifted a weight in your life.
 
But plenty on how to tell if someone has any in depth knowledge about bodybuilding.

In any case, the published scientific studies that were posted in *this* thread remain, so AFAIK roid rage has been established as much as criminal behavior can ever be established.

Perhaps some else will come along who can directly address the pertinent questions, such as the CHI/violence speculation.
 
crimresearch said:
But plenty on how to tell if someone has any in depth knowledge about bodybuilding.

In any case, the published scientific studies that were posted in *this* thread remain, so AFAIK roid rage has been established as much as criminal behavior can ever be established.

Perhaps some else will come along who can directly address the pertinent questions, such as the CHI/violence speculation.
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1.My having a problem with the hypothetical situation of homosexuals masturbating to nude photographs of me has absolutely nothing to do with my bodybuilding knowledge.
And even if anything in that prior thread had anything to do with my bodybuilding knowledge at the time it makes no difference right now,Saying it does would be commiting an ad hominem fallacy. You're arguing that based on some past argument(non existant past argument) my knowledge of bodybuilding must be small therefor this point here and now is wrong. You're not providing any evidence for your claim instead you're resulting to some past thread to attack my credability.

2.The only studies posted supporting increased aggression when using AAS was done on non-humans which means nothing when studies exist that were done on humans. There is not a concensus among scientists as to the negative psychological effects on the human brain when taking anabolic steroids. Some studies show a noticable increase in aggression in some users and some studies find absolutely no evidence of any increase in aggression.
The results vary depending on the testing method and the many factors when testing. For instance most studies that do find noticable increases in aggression only interviewed the people using the steroids and asked them about aggressive incidents in the past and went on what they said,While the studies that did not find any effects on aggression actually observed those they were studying.(Note none of the studies showed a increase in aggression in all of the participants,Only a small fraction.)

Just to show you the varying results gathered by scientists over the years and how there is no concensus of any kind.

Choi, P.Y.L., Parrott, A.C., & Cowan, D. (1990). High dose anabolic steroids in strength athletes: Effects upon hostility and aggression. Human Psychopharmacology, 5, 349-356.

Fultz, O. (1991). "Roid rage. American Health, 10, 60-64.

Kouri, E.M., Lukas, S.E., Pope, G.G., & Oliva, P.S. (1995). Increased aggressive responding in male volunteers following the administration of gradually increasing doses of testosterone cypionate. Drug and Alcohol Dependence, 40, 73-79.



And for the last time....Even if high doses of testosterone dose cause a increase in aggression does NOT mean the person with the increased aggression will act out on those feelings. Everytime one gets angry one does not start attacking people and breaking things,If one have self control that never happens.
 
1> Again, if you want to revisit that thread in the appropriate forum, I or someone else will no doubt be happy to expalin the basics of bodybulding to you...such as what cycles are, or how PER and refraction effect performance..or who Vince Goronda was.


2> Nice try...too bad that the already posted studies on human aggression and AAS refute your claims.

You might want to actually read them...
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http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/STEROIDS.HTM

"Of growing concern to physicians and psychologists is the mounting evidence that anabolic /androgenic steroids cause severe and sometimes permanent mental disorders."


http://journalsip.astm.org/PDF/JOFS...2002240_483.pdf
May 2003
"Our findings, while not conclusive, are consistent with prior research studies that suggest that AS use promotes aggression
among “normal healthy males” (negative psychiatric history)
and typical users of AS in the general population such as
weightlifters. All of the studies suggest either directly or indirectly
that there is a dose-dependent effect of anabolic steroids on aggression as measured by the BDHI and PSAP.
The PSAP has been utilized to measure aggression associated with alcohol, caffeine, secobarbital, nicotine, benzodiazepines, amphetamines, and marijuana as well as male parolees since 1981, while the BDHI has been utilized as a psychometric tool for measuring aggression since 1957. Thus, after considering the breadth of the anabolic steroid scientific literature, it would seem that the finding that AS promote aggression meets the Daubert Criteria ."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is always more informative to look at more recent articles.
 
1.I know what cycles are.And btw,It's Vince Gironda. You can't seem to grasp the fact that you're not offering any evidence for your claim that a bicep can grow 7 inches in circumfrence in 12 weeks. All you can do is bring up some past thread to try to discredit me. Typical Ad hominem. It's obvious you have no evidence for the claim.

2.I know there are studies showing AAS can cause aggression. But there are also studies showing it does not. The studies you posted reference anecdotal claims for evidence,Or where the user was clearly absuing the drugs. There is a difference between use and abuse.


So it's clear you completly ignored my prior post.
 
Really? Then why did you fail to answer even the simplest of bodybuilding facts in the other thread that you won't revisit, including Gironda, cycles, PER and refraction?

And more to the point in *this* thread, why do you continue to pretend that 15 year old studies trump the most recent research?

BTW, since I never made any claim that biceps could grow 7 inches in 12 weeks, you are batting zero on that one too.

You do know what an anecdote is don't you?

You do understand the concept of 'Here is an example of an anecdote that is just as unrealiable as the one you just used about roid rage'?
And you do understand that 'magic' doesn't really exist?

Do you have something useful and correct to answer the Otnow-Lewis question with, or don't you?
 
crimresearch said:
Really? Then why did you fail to answer even the simplest of bodybuilding facts in the other thread that you won't revisit, including Gironda, cycles, PER and refraction?
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I stopped posting in that thread because the topic went from bodybuilding to homosexuality.

crimresearch said:

And more to the point in *this* thread, why do you continue to pretend that 15 year old studies trump the most recent research?
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The studies Im refering to range from ages.


crimresearch said:
BTW, since I never made any claim that biceps could grow 7 inches in 12 weeks, you are batting zero on that one too.
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Really?

crimresearch said:
For example, I've seen tendons snap, and muscles rolled up like a window shade, on someone who went from 17" to 24" biceps in a matter of weeks, and 85lb single triceps extensions...
Click to expand...


And then clarifying how many weeks you said..

crimresearch said:
No, seriously, 'a matter of weeks' was 12 weeks to achieve that sort of hypertrophy in the belly of the muscle..but connective tissue takes more time to support the high weight loads, hence the detachment.
Click to expand...





crimresearch said:
You do know what an anecdote is don't you?

You do understand the concept of 'Here is an example of an anecdote that is just as unrealiable as the one you just used about roid rage'?
And you do understand that 'magic' doesn't really exist?

Do you have something useful and correct to answer the Otnow-Lewis question with, or don't you?
Click to expand...


The studies done on aggression you posted all relied on anecdotal claims. But they can all be easly explained by the fact that the questions in the studies were flawed and not clear enough. I said that already in a prior post.
 
Anecdotal claims?

"All of the studies suggest either directly or indirectly
that there is a dose-dependent effect of anabolic steroids on aggression as measured by the BDHI and PSAP.
The PSAP has been utilized to measure aggression associated with alcohol, caffeine, secobarbital, nicotine, benzodiazepines, amphetamines, and marijuana as well as male parolees since 1981, while the BDHI has been utilized as a psychometric tool for measuring aggression since 1957. Thus, after considering the breadth of the anabolic steroid scientific literature, it would seem that the finding that AS promote aggression meets the Daubert Criteria ."



Riiiiight..peer reviewed studies, using instruments that have been the standard for measuring aggression for decades 'weren't clear enough' because you say so?

You being the person who claimed a few posts ago that there were NO human studies?
Now there are, but you've spotted the flaws in them that all of the doctors reviewing them missed?

BTW, exactly what was the wording of these flawed questions?
 
Steroids

Nope don't think should be illegal. People know consequences, just as they do with smoking or anything else. In fact we need to repeal many laws already on the books.

There are already too many laws anyway, that cover ridiculous things, and things in which no real harm is done. There can't be a law about everything, or at least shouldn't be.
 
crimresearch said:
Anecdotal claims?

"All of the studies suggest either directly or indirectly
that there is a dose-dependent effect of anabolic steroids on aggression as measured by the BDHI and PSAP.
The PSAP has been utilized to measure aggression associated with alcohol, caffeine, secobarbital, nicotine, benzodiazepines, amphetamines, and marijuana as well as male parolees since 1981, while the BDHI has been utilized as a psychometric tool for measuring aggression since 1957. Thus, after considering the breadth of the anabolic steroid scientific literature, it would seem that the finding that AS promote aggression meets the Daubert Criteria ."




Riiiiight..peer reviewed studies, using instruments that have been the standard for measuring aggression for decades 'weren't clear enough' because you say so?

You being the person who claimed a few posts ago that there were NO human studies?
Now there are, but you've spotted the flaws in them that all of the doctors reviewing them missed?

BTW, exactly what was the wording of these flawed questions?
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There are just too many problems with the study you just referenced.

Firstly...A Quote from the same study you referenced.

Although Pope was able to demonstrate significant alterations inoverall aggression and mood endpoints, the majority of subjectsdid not experience significant aggressive symptoms.
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The same study put Creatine,Multi vitamins and Protein Powder under the area of "Other drugs" that the subject was taking.

Secondly,Even if anabolic steroids can cause aggression in SOME of it's users that does not imply it causes "roid rage". There is a difference between aggression and "rage".Which is what this whole argument is about. Steroids should be illegal because users pose risks to people around them. Which just does stand up as an argument.

Thirdly, I never claimed there were no tests done on humans. You seem to be forgetings things you said and making up things I said.

Fourthly,You also seem to have a habit of ditching points after they've been refuted and moving onto unrelated points.
 
Re: Re: Should steroid use be illegal?

username said:
I disagree, but only partially.

I agree that it should be 100% up to the individual what they put into their bodies and it is none of the government's business. I feel this way about steroids, pot and crack.
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Brady et al (1991) interviewed 55 subjects consecutively admitted for treatment of cocaine dependence (DSM-III-R). A transient cocaine psychosis was reported by 53% (29/55) of the patients. The psychotic group had used more cocaine in the year prior to admission and had a longer duration of use. Males were more likely to become psychotic than females. The mental status presentation of the psychotic group included: paranoid delusions 90% (26/29), and hallucinations 96% (28/29) which included 83% (24/29) auditory hallucinations, 38% (11/29) visual hallucinations, 21% (6/29) tactile hallucinations. Transient sterotypies were experienced by 27% (15/55) subjects.
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http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/psychiatry/CPS/26.html

No problem with crack, nosireebob. Particularly with people whose judgement you depend on, like lawyers, doctors, piolets, people whoact in loco parentis and such.

Prospective adoptive parents, as well as parents who have recently adopted infants, need to be aware that when a pregnant woman uses cocaine during her pregnancy, it crosses the placenta and causes considerable damage to the developing fetus. Although cocaine is thought to damage many organ systems, the developing central nervous system of the fetus is especially sensitive to this powerful stimulant. Such damage has been implicated in a variety of developmental problems for the infant and later for the child.
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http://www.nysccc.org/cocaine.html

Nothing wrong with self absorbtion, not at all. Getting high is really, really important.
 
Dustin, here are your exact words from this thread...deny them if you want:

"2.The only studies posted supporting increased aggression when using AAS was done on non-humans which means nothing when studies exist that were done on humans.


The only studies showing aggression were done on non-humans...that is what you said...then you claimed that the studies showing aggression were anecdotal...
Do you seriously believe that they did anecdotal studies on ANIMALS?


Then you claimed the studies were poorly worded..now you claim they listed Creatinine as something other than AAS.

Feel free to back up your claims that these poorly worded, anecdotal studies with Creatinine were done on non-humans.

Or shall we just agree that bodybuilding and science are two areas where you haven't provided any useful information, and let you move on?
 
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