Should steroid use be illegal?

[davefoc]

I have a number of questions here which may be answered by reading some of the threads that exist on these subjects or that might be two big a digression for this thread.

So, my apologies, if that is the situation.

1. What would a world completely without drug regulation for users be like? In this world you could buy any drug you wanted anytime once you reached 21. Are there some countries that approach this? I understand prescriptions aren't necessary in Mexico for a lot of drugs that require prescriptions in the US. Are there any positive or negative consequences that might help answer this question?

2. My wife and I were talking about Chyna (the ex WWF wrestler) and the subject of steroid use came up. My wife said that based on her experience she thought she might have killed somebody if she had kept taking them. As the somewhat unfortunate target of her behavior when she was taking these things I'd say that at the very least she was exhibiting some very hostile behaviors that weren't normal for her. Any comments?

3. I understand that steroids are much more readily available in Europe? Is this true?

4. Based on what my daughter (who is studying in France) tells me, French pharmacists routinely provide medications to people without the need for a prescription from their doctor. What are the practical effects of this approach? Are the French better or worse off as a result of the much greater authority that a French Pharmacist has than an American pharmacist? Is this a common practice for pharmacists in the rest of Europe?

 

[TeaBag420]

I have a number of questions here which may be answered by reading some of the threads that exist on these subjects or that might be two big a digression for this thread.

So, my apologies, if that is the situation.

1. What would a world completely without drug regulation for users be like? In this world you could buy any drug you wanted anytime once you reached 21. Are there some countries that approach this? I understand prescriptions aren't necessary in Mexico for a lot of drugs that require prescriptions in the US. Are there any positive or negative consequences that might help answer this question?

2. My wife and I were talking about Chyna (the ex WWF wrestler) and the subject of steroid use came up. My wife said that based on her experience she thought she might have killed somebody if she had kept taking them. As the somewhat unfortunate target of her behavior when she was taking these things I'd say that at the very least she was exhibiting some very hostile behaviors that weren't normal for her. Any comments?

3. I understand that steroids are much more readily available in Europe? Is this true?

4. Based on what my daughter (who is studying in France) tells me, French pharmacists routinely provide medications to people without the need for a prescription from their doctor. What are the practical effects of this approach? Are the French better or worse off as a result of the much greater authority that a French Pharmacist has than an American pharmacist? Is this a common practice for pharmacists in the rest of Europe?

Why do you refer to Chyna as "she"? Have you looked at her pelvis and elbows?

 

[Tmy]

Because it's a "scrip", not a "script".

In many jurisdictions in the U.S. performing surgery without a license is a misdemeanor.

Just thought the readers might like to know.

By the way, F for punctuation.

Im dyslexic you ass. "Scrip" or "script" who cares its just shorthanded abbreviations for "prescription". Its just a message forum, not a senior thesis. Screw the spellcheck.


Im not saying roids should be over the counter. But why cant you get the prescribed by a doctor for elective reasons?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

AAS Should NOT be illegal and should be OTC.

I want to also add that "Roid rage" is really something the media pushes and is really unrealistic. I know many people who use AAS frequently none of who show symptons of "roid rage" all of whom use upper amounts of the drugs. If you're a a$$ without steroids you will be a A$$ on steroids,It's as simple as that. There are no real studies showing increased aggressiveness due to steroid use,Just anecdotal accounts.

Also...As far as europe. There are places in East europe and southern europe where steroids are legal. Mexico they are legal,many places in asia,The islands south of florida,Key's..ect.
Heck..In mexico you can go into any ol pharmacy and buy steroids. All of the name brands at that. No prescription needed. I simply wish america were as Free Mexico


Also..A world without any control on substances would be bad. I think it's up to the individual what he should take as long as it does not effect the non-user. But some rules should apply in some circumstances.

However I absolutely support legalization of Steroids and Marijuana. I think these are two things we need to work on.

First we need to get the govt off of our backs about SAFE vitamins and sports supplements like creatine or protein. Then we need to get other supplements unbanned such as prohormones and ephedra. Then we need to start working on drugs such as steroids and Marijuana,Softer drugs first.

 

[Mouthfire]

As a pharmacist and bb I've thought and dicussed this subject extensively over the years. My personal opinion (which I'd rather not discuss once more) is that steroids should be regulated exactly like most other drugs but their use in sports should not be banned.

But this is not why I've posted here. I just want to point out that there is an amazing amount of misinformation regarding steroids, their use and abuse, and their side effects. People who make decisions about the legality og steroids (and ergogenics etc.) often give the impression that don't know their stuff too well or maybe they value too much the opinion of the uneducated public and the raving media.

This article presents a brief summary of the problems that misinformation brings. Eg:



There are much more detailed articles in the subject around the net.

It's interesting that you mentioned this... it wasn't that long ago that we were discussing the cardiac issues on another forum. There was a case report on a 20 y/o bodybuilder who suffered sudden cardiac death after doing steroids.

I'll just copy and paste my summary of it because I'm lazy....

Here's the source used:
Sudden cardiac death in a 20-year-old bodybuilder using anabolic steroids.
Dickerman RD - Cardiology - 01-JAN-1995; 86(2): 172-3

The 20 year-old bodybuilder was completely healthy, had an unremarkable past medical history, had no prior medical complaints, and had no family history of cardiac disease. He had just completed a 3 month cycle of several anabolic steroids (Primobolan-Depot, Testosterona, and Laurabolan). He was administering approximately 700 mg/week of anabolic steroids, which I don't believe is an excessive amount.

Upon autopsy, his heart was shown to be twice the size of a normal heart. He suffered instantaneous cardiac death with bilateral pulmonary hemorrhage.

Now at this point, although I must concede that you cannot prove without a doubt that the steroids caused his death, the evidence is more than convincing....

1) He definitely died as a result of a hypertrophied heart.
2) He had no prior cardiac conditions, nor any other reason for having a hypertrophied heart.
3) Anabolic steroids have been shown in multiple studies to cause hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. They've even done conclusive animal studies.... anabolic steroids in primates and rats resulted in heart damage associated with cardiomyopathy. Steroids administration to canines resulted in hypertrophied hearts.

Let me approach this from a different angle.... Let's say you gave me an 18 year old male (who wasn't taking steroids) with a high cholesterol level, low HDL levels, abnormal platelet aggregation, and a hypertrophied heart. I would tell you that this guy is a cardiac disaster waiting to happen. I wouldn't even treat this guy.... I'd send him straight to a cardiologist because I'd be so worried....

Anabolic steroids have been shown to cause all of these changes....

 

[El Greco]

Well, I think we can safely say that one bodybuilder (and a rather young one, with no margin for chronic steroid abuse) is not something to draw conclusions from. Bodybuilders (and Olympic lifters) have abused steroids so much during the last decades that they should be dropping like flies from cardiomyopathies if this were the case. And I don't happen to know of any studies showing such problems with a statistically significant number of BBs.

It is quite common that whatever happens to a bodybuilder, the steroids get the blame for. I'm not saying that they are innocent, but did they check that bodybuilder for Congenital Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy ? Was there a differential diagnosis made ? Many young people die suddenly from heart problems, but when it comes to bodybuilders the death will almost invariably be attributed to steroids. Many young people suffer from renal failure, but when it comes to bodybuilders the failure will almost invariably be attributed to high protein intake.

Not too many years ago I faced a similar situation when an idiot pathologist with absolutely no idea about weight lifting told me I could probably have hepatitis because I had slightly elevated ALT and AST levels (and I wasn't even taking AAS or anything). That doctor had probably never heard about rhabdomyolysis but fortunately enough I knew about this study and he didn't frighten me (GGT was normal). But I know other bodybuilders who have been terrorized by ignorant MDs.

 

[Mouthfire]

Well, I think we can safely say that one bodybuilder (and a rather young one, with no margin for chronic steroid abuse) is not something to draw conclusions from. Bodybuilders (and Olympic lifters) have abused steroids so much during the last decades that they should be dropping like flies from cardiomyopathies if this were the case. And I don't happen to know of any studies showing such problems with a statistically significant number of BBs.

It is quite common that whatever happens to a bodybuilder, the steroids get the blame for. I'm not saying that they are innocent, but did they check that bodybuilder for Congenital Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy ? Was there a differential diagnosis made ? Many young people die suddenly from heart problems, but when it comes to bodybuilders the death will almost invariably be attributed to steroids. Many young people suffer from renal failure, but when it comes to bodybuilders the failure will almost invariably be attributed to high protein intake.

Not too many years ago I faced a similar situation when an idiot pathologist with absolutely no idea about weight lifting told me I could probably have hepatitis because I had slightly elevated ALT and AST levels (and I wasn't even taking AAS or anything). That doctor had probably never heard about rhabdomyolysis but fortunately enough I knew about this study and he didn't frighten me (GGT was normal). But I know other bodybuilders who have been terrorized by ignorant MDs.

But this isn't an isolated case. I simply pointed out this one because it was a very well documented case.

There is also a line of thought amongst medical professionals that the recent rash of sudden cardiac deaths amongst high school athetes is due to anabolic steroids, and not congenital at all. You have to remember, congenital hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is supposed to be rare, and we are seeing quite a lot of it nowadays....

Then you have to consider the empiric evidence:
1) We know athletes are dying from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
2) We also have very strong, replicable evidence from animal studies that anabolic steroids cause hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
3) And finally we have this recent mini-epidemic of sudden cardiac deaths.

It doesn't take a lot of deductive reasoning to figure out the logic here. Again, it's not iron-clad, but I think it's fairly convincing....

 

[El Greco]

Then you have to consider the empiric evidence:
1) We know athletes are dying from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
2) We also have very strong, replicable evidence from animal studies that anabolic steroids cause hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
3) And finally we have this recent mini-epidemic of sudden cardiac deaths.

It doesn't take a lot of deductive reasoning to figure out the logic here. Again, it's not iron-clad, but I think it's fairly convincing....

In fact it takes a lot of deductive reasoning, which I don't see here:

Athletes die from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy ? If they suffer from HCM they shouldn't be athletes in the first place. Screening has a place here. The condition known as "athletic heart" has nothing to do with HCM, no matter what some "experts" say. From this page:

"Distinguishing between these two conditions is critical because hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) accounts for a significant number of sudden deaths in athletes during physical activity. Maron et al27 found that 46% of sudden deaths in young athletes were due to HCM or possible HCM (see "Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy: Practical Steps for Preventing Sudden Death"). Unlike athletic heart syndrome, which reflects the heart's normal adaptation to strenuous physical activity, HCM is characterized by profound hypertrophy, which usually occurs at the expense of the LV cavity, asymmetrical septal hypertrophy, and myofibrillar disarray. Mutations in at least eight genes can cause HCM. Mutations in the beta-cardiac myosin heavy chain occur in only half of HCM patients, suggesting other mutations or nongenetic causes are also responsible"

"Athletic Heart" is a form of hypertrophy that reflects normal adaptations to strenuous exercise. In fact, the largest hearts belong to endurance athletes who don't use anabolic steroids. The changes in myocardium that may or may not occur to athletes who take anabolic steroids have nothing to do with HCM. From this page:

"In the study above researchers identified LVH at or beyond 13mm in not only bodybuilders using anabolic steroids but also in "drug free" athletes as well. Although it was shown that those using anabolics showed significantly more ventricular thickening, at least one drug free athlete was beyond the 13mm limit."

Furthermore, in the absence of any study which associates a statistically significant number of steroid users with increased mortality rates, I think the deductive logic you're talking about needs a lot of work.

 

[crimresearch]

I'm not up on the current research on 'roid rage', but I seem to recall something about the effect on serotonin re-uptake inhibition.

Has anyone done any comparisons like the Otnow-Lewis aggression research to see if there is a similar male externalizing effect?

http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/STEROIDS.HTM

"Of growing concern to physicians and psychologists is the mounting evidence that anabolic /androgenic steroids cause severe and sometimes permanent mental disorders."



http://journalsip.astm.org/PDF/JOFS/JFS2002240_483/JFS2002240_483.pdf

"Our findings, while not conclusive, are consistent with prior research studies that suggest that AS use promotes aggression
among “normal healthy males” (negative psychiatric history)
and typical users of AS in the general population such as
weightlifters. All of the studies suggest either directly or indirectly
that there is a dose-dependent effect of anabolic steroids on aggression as measured by the BDHI and PSAP.
The PSAP has been utilized to measure aggression associated with alcohol, caffeine, secobarbital, nicotine, benzodiazepines, amphetamines, and marijuana as well as male parolees since 1981, while the BDHI has been utilized as a psychometric tool for measuring aggression since 1957. Thus, after considering the breadth of the anabolic steroid scientific literature, it would seem that the finding that AS promote aggression meets the Daubert Criteria ."

 

[Mouthfire]

In fact it takes a lot of deductive reasoning, which I don't see here:

Athletes die from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy ? If they suffer from HCM they shouldn't be athletes in the first place. Screening has a place here. The condition known as "athletic heart" has nothing to do with HCM, no matter what some "experts" say. From this page:

"Distinguishing between these two conditions is critical because hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) accounts for a significant number of sudden deaths in athletes during physical activity. Maron et al27 found that 46% of sudden deaths in young athletes were due to HCM or possible HCM (see "Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy: Practical Steps for Preventing Sudden Death"). Unlike athletic heart syndrome, which reflects the heart's normal adaptation to strenuous physical activity, HCM is characterized by profound hypertrophy, which usually occurs at the expense of the LV cavity, asymmetrical septal hypertrophy, and myofibrillar disarray. Mutations in at least eight genes can cause HCM. Mutations in the beta-cardiac myosin heavy chain occur in only half of HCM patients, suggesting other mutations or nongenetic causes are also responsible"

"Athletic Heart" is a form of hypertrophy that reflects normal adaptations to strenuous exercise. In fact, the largest hearts belong to endurance athletes who don't use anabolic steroids. The changes in myocardium that may or may not occur to athletes who take anabolic steroids have nothing to do with HCM. From this page:

"In the study above researchers identified LVH at or beyond 13mm in not only bodybuilders using anabolic steroids but also in "drug free" athletes as well. Although it was shown that those using anabolics showed significantly more ventricular thickening, at least one drug free athlete was beyond the 13mm limit."

Furthermore, in the absence of any study which associates a statistically significant number of steroid users with increased mortality rates, I think the deductive logic you're talking about needs a lot of work.

That's interesting, because I've seen both of those articles before, and I've discussed them in detail with my colleagues. In fact, the article that you posted regarding "Athletic Heart" is from the same author who wrote the article about the "Sudden cardiac death in a 20-year-old bodybuilder using anabolic steroids."

In any event, the RD Dickerson article that you posted suggested that normal weight lifters may have increased heart size without LV dysfunction. But it doesn’t even come close to concluding that this accounts for the enlarged hearts seen in steroid users, as you are asserting.... For one thing, when we see these hypertrophied hearts in steroid users, we do tend to see LV dysfunction, which by definition, is NOT “athlete’s heart”.

It is also interesting to note that RD Dickerson stated in my article, “This case is indicative of the potential catastrophic effects of anabolic steroids and reinforces the warning against use of these drugs by athletes”.

This is the exact same author, mind you….

 

[Mouthfire]

Athletes die from hypertrophic cardiomyopathy ? If they suffer from HCM they shouldn't be athletes in the first place. Screening has a place here.

You're obviously not a clinician, so I will forgive you here....

Physical screening exists, but it is not 100%. In fact, IMO, it is a very crummy way of looking for hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. A large number of these patients will have a normal cardiac exam, despite having a heart twice the size of normal.

So, in short: yes, these patients will get cleared and they will become athletes....

 

[Mouthfire]

Again, I would like to reiterate:

1) Anabolic steroid administration in primates and rats resulted in histological cardiac damage that results in hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. This is not seen in "Athlete's Heart".
2) Anabolic steroid administration in canines resulted in hypertrophied hearts without subjecting the canine to strenuous activity

I think both of these points clearly suggest that enlarged hearts seen in most anabolic steroid users is truly pathological, and NOT "athlete's heart".

And furthermore, a heart that is twice the size of normal is clearly pathological, and not "athlete's heart".

 

[Tmy]

All those problems are caused because of unsupervised use. If you had a doctor monitoring the usage their wouldnt be as many issues.

 

[Sushi]

You should be able to put anything into your own body if you so choose.

If course, protectionist ***holes (I stand by that statement. You are controlling and dominating of others for no good reason.) will disagree over some stupid notion of "community" or "public good".

 

[El Greco]

Physical screening exists, but it is not 100%. In fact, IMO, it is a very crummy way of looking for hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. A large number of these patients will have a normal cardiac exam, despite having a heart twice the size of normal.

So, in short: yes, these patients will get cleared and they will become athletes....

*sigh*

Posts like this remind me why I didn't want to discuss this in the first place...

I am perfectly aware that HCM is almost never diagnosed. What does this mean ? Athletes with HCM die, and they are not just steroid using athletes. So what ? Athletes and non-athletes with various conditions die from a lot of things. Do you have any data suggesting that steroid using athletes die more frequently than other athletes ?

Anabolic steroid administration in primates and rats resulted in histological cardiac damage that results in hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

In what studies ? In what doses ? Was this administration coupled with exercise ? And "rats and primates" ? Give me a break. Do you have any idea what I can prove by extrapolating studies done with rats and primates ?

Furthermore: What where the findings ? Was asymmetric septal hypertrophy observed ? Thickening of anterior MV leafleat ? Anomalous coronary artery ? How close was that "hypertrophic myocardiopathy" resembling the autossomal genetical condition responsible for athlete's (and non-athlete's) deaths ?

Anabolic steroid administration in canines resulted in hypertrophied hearts without subjecting the canine to strenuous activity

I already said that changes in the myocardium do occur, this is not something secret. The question is, under what doses, with which substances, what's the difference when the subjects are also exercising and whether are there any longitudinal studies investigating the mortality rates of steroid users.

Do read
this page which presents an unbiased review of the data available in the literature. Especially Chapter 2, where you can compare changes in both users and non-users.

You can die taking almost anything and can abuse almost anything. Your position is akin to "let's blame aspirin for suicides since some people have used it to kill themselves".

Without any longitudinal studies, and without any control whatsoever in the administration of steroids in strength athletes (it's largely a "fail and learn" game the way it is), you "deduct" that steroids do increase mortality rates.

Your "deduction logic" suffers.

You're obviously not a clinician, so I will forgive you here....

I'm not. And I sure hope you aren't too.

 

[Mouthfire]

I'm not. And I sure hope you aren't too.

Eh... touched off a nerve, did we?

In any event, I will kindly see if I can track down those animal studies. They are fairly decent articles, and give pretty good insight into the pathophysiology of how anabolic steroids damage heart muscle.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Steroids having health risks or not makes no difference. Tobacco or alcohol are much more dangerous than steroid use both of which are legal. It's having potential health risks is NOT a reason to make it illegal. If I want to put it in my body no one should have the right to say I can't,Or put me in jail if I do. That just makes no sense.

Secondly..If steroids were anywhere near as dangerous as some of you are making them out to be...Pro bodybuilding..Where every single pro bodybuilder for the past 40 years has been taking some type of anabolic steroids,We should see them dropping like flys.Except we don't. We only see a few bodybuilders here and there dying of heart attacks which can be attributed to anything from their genetics to their diet. Im pretty sure the percent of bodybuilders who die before 50 and the percent of people in the general population who die below 50 is much much lower,I don't have any stats but you can just go though all of the famous bodybuilders since the 60's and see for yourself.

 

[crimresearch]

I'm guessing we also don't have any stats on how many people have been injured by steroid involved bodybuilders, powerlifters, or other athletes and and cops, either.

Maybe for some strange reason those sorts of things are underreported. Or is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?

So we should keep operating on the assumption that they are perfectly safe?

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I'm guessing we also don't have any stats on how many people have been injured by steroid involved bodybuilders, powerlifters, or other athletes and and cops, either.

Maybe for some strange reason those sorts of things are underreported. Or is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?

So we should keep operating on the assumption that they are perfectly safe?

Im a bodybuilder and I know literally dozens of people who use AAS(anabolic steroids). I've never once experienced someone loose their temper becuase of steroid use. No one go into a "roid rage" or anything like that. The worst thing i've seen steroids do to their mood is when they go off of them incorrectly and a sudden drop of testosterone results in them acting alot like women and having no energy and sometimes wanting to sit down and watch a soap opera rather than work out(I kid you not) because of imbalance of hormones makes them act very different(Never loose temper or angry). Bodybuilders should use Clomid,A cycle off steroid used to bring natural test levels back. Alot of the times they don't the sudden drop in test levels results in mood changes.

So to be clear...As I said before. If you're a @$$hole off steroids,You will be one on steroids. The whole "roid rage" thing is a media propaganda to make people afraid of anabolic steroids. You can ask any one who has used steroids or know people who uses steroids,It's nonsense. Increased Test may increase your aggession,But the fact is...The person is still in control of their body. Increased aggression does not equal snapping and attacking people and breaking things. If you have a short fuse it makes no difference if you're on or off steroids. I've never taken steroids in my life and My fuse is extremly short,But I can control my temper and I've never done anything violent when I get angry. Some people can't,And more often or not the people who have harder times controling their tempers lift weights to vent steam. And those are the same people more likely to take steroids. Thus more likely to snap because they already have a predisposition to snap.

 

[crimresearch]

Bodybuilders have lots of anecdotal claims about what they have or haven't seen regarding steroid abuse...

For example, I've seen tendons snap, and muscles rolled up like a window shade, on someone who went from 17" to 24" biceps in a matter of weeks, and 85lb single triceps extensions...
zCould be steroid use, could be voodoo...who's to say?

And 'roid rage also involves some possibly criminal behavior, making it even harder to get accurate data.


I was a little more interested in controlled studies, since (as you correctly point out) it would be important to know if a person was a violent wifebeater before abusing AAS.

So far I've not gotten any answers from our resident clinician, pharmacologist, or anyone else regarding the cited studies, much less any opinions on a possible link to Otnow-Lewis' work on CHI and violent males.