Should prostitution be legalized?

[sinclairmcevoy]

If prostitution was legalized, regulated and taxed, would there not still be a large amount of people doing it illegally? I mean, for example, those addicted to drugs, gambling or people who just don't see another way to make money. Why would someone in a situation like that want to pay tax on their money? Resources would still be spent on prosecuting illegal prostitution. Prostitution is here to stay, if it's made legal there will always be people willing to break that law to make tax-free money.

 

[Pardalis]

What is the usefulness of a diamond necklace? Because I don't see any value there. Therefore, diamond necklaces should be illegal.

I hope you realize that this is not the argument I was making. Of course things that are useless should not necessarily be illegal. But if they are detrimental to an entire slice of society (i.e. women) the government sure shouldn't endorse it, is all I'm saying.

 

[tsg]

I hope you realize that this is not the argument I was making. Of course things that are useless should not necessarily be illegal.

Then I fail to understand the point of arguing its usefulness.

But if they are detrimental to an entire slice of society (i.e. women)

You still haven't supported this assertion.

the government sure shouldn't endorse it, is all I'm saying.

Failing to prevent people from doing a thing is not the same as saying they should be doing it.

 

[Pardalis]

Then I fail to understand the point of arguing its usefulness.

I'm not sure myself, I think the genesis of this discussion has something to do with your comment about sewer workers.

You still haven't supported this assertion.

I know, I haven't studied this issue at length, so maybe I am making an argument from ignorance. But I think it's common knowledge that most women who choose this practice don't do it because that's what they really want to do with their lives.

Failing to prevent people from doing a thing is not the same as saying they should be doing it.

I understand, but making it legal kind of gives a signal that it's OK.

 

[tsg]

I'm not sure myself, I think the genesis of this discussion has something to do with your comment about sewer workers.



I know, I haven't studied this issue at length, so maybe I am making an argument from ignorance. But I think it's common knowledge that most women who choose this practice don't do it because that's what they really want to do with their lives.

That was the point behind the sewer workers comment: few people are lucky enough to get a profession they really enjoy doing. Work isn't fun. If it was, they wouldn't have to pay you to do it. But not being fun and being detrimental are entirely different things. And some women don't seem to mind prostitution as a career, at least not in the way you seem to think they should.

I understand, but making it legal kind of gives a signal that it's OK.

It only means that it isn't considered harmful enough to warrant punishing people for doing it. Cigarettes and alcohol being legal is not an endorsement to smoke or drink. The whole point behind freedom is allowing people to make their own decisions, even if it means allowing them to make bad ones.

 

[dann]

And let's make the military illegal as well. I don't feel comfortable with young men prostituting their body for money and a worthless cause such as killing other people.

Neither do I. It would actually be a very good idea to put a stop to "young men (...) killing other people", in particular the legal kind of killing that the state pays soldiers to do!

 

[Michael C]

I vote for:

Prostitution should be legal but strictly regulated. Regulations should include:
- Protection against sexually transmitted diseases.
- Protection against violence or any forms of abuse, from clients or from pimps.
- Minimum age requirement.
- Special pension schemes that take into account the early retirement age.
In order to enforce these conditions, prostitution should only be allowed in authorised brothels where the prostitutes can work in safety. Clients are obliged to register personal details and are subject to security checks.

If we can detach the violence and abuse from prostitution, I'm all for it being legal. I guess that this is an impossible utopia. As far as I can tell, it doesn't make much difference if prostitution is legal or illegal: it keeps on existing and keeps on providing a framework for violence against women.

A couple of links: an argument against decriminalizing prostitution and a "job ad" that gives an idea of typical working conditions.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

It only means that it isn't considered harmful enough to warrant punishing people for doing it. Cigarettes and alcohol being legal is not an endorsement to smoke or drink. The whole point behind freedom is allowing people to make their own decisions, even if it means allowing them to make bad ones.

'The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.'
James A. Baldwin

 

[Pardalis]

- Protection against violence or any forms of abuse, from clients or from pimps.

This gets me thinking, isn't prostitution illegal specifically because of the pimps? I think I read somewhere that the prostitutes and johns are not necessarily the ones in illegality, but actually the third party profiting from it (because that is considered exploitation).

So if prostitution is made legal, then wouldn't the state then be replacing the pimp, and therefore wouldn't that become unethical?

 

[Pardalis]

Neither do I. It would actually be a very good idea to put a stop to "young men (...) killing other people", in particular the legal kind of killing that the state pays soldiers to do!

Good thing we don't have to count on Denmark to fight for our freedoms.

 

[tsg]

'The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.'
James A. Baldwin

Do you have a point?

 

[dann]

I know, I haven't studied this issue at length, so maybe I am making an argument from ignorance. But I think it's common knowledge that most women who choose this practice don't do it because that's what they really want to do with their lives.

Don't apologize for your ignorance. The apologists here are the guys who pretend to be knowledgeable about the theme and who proclaim how much in favour of women's freedom to choose they are.

If you want to read up on the whole thing, I can offer you the following links:

Prostitution Reality Check
And more links about prostitution and poverty:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2496288#post2496288
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2497034#post2497034
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2498549#post2498549
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2498551#post2498551
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2498821#post2498821
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2499382#post2499382
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2499417#post2499417
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2499546#post2499546

More here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3279139#post3279139
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3293118#post3293118
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3295906#post3295906
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3296032#post3296032
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3331146#post3331146
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3408038#post3408038

 

[tsg]

This gets me thinking, isn't prostitution illegal specifically because of the pimps? I think I read somewhere that the prostitutes and johns are not necessarily the ones in illegality, but actually the third party profiting from it (because that is considered exploitation).

I highly doubt that. The reason the pimps are able to exploit the women is precisely because there is no regulation preventing them from doing it.

So if prostitution is made legal, then wouldn't the state then be replacing the pimp, and therefore wouldn't that become unethical?

I get the feeling you're just searching for reasons to justify what you want to happen anyway.

 

[Richard Masters]

This gets me thinking, isn't prostitution illegal specifically because of the pimps? I think I read somewhere that the prostitutes and johns are not necessarily the ones in illegality, but actually the third party profiting from it (because that is considered exploitation).

So if prostitution is made legal, then wouldn't the state then be replacing the pimp, and therefore wouldn't that become unethical?

That's a weak argument. But anyway, the state is already a pimp when it buys young men to prostitute their bodies for oil and political power.

Plus, you've got the state-sponsored human trafficking to places as far as Korea and Germany. Even Iraq and soon Iran as well.

 

[dann]

Good thing we don't have to count on Denmark to fight for our freedoms.

Young Danes have already killed far too many foreigners in the name of "our freedoms" and they are still doing it in Afghanistan.

 

[Pardalis]

I get the feeling you're just searching for reasons to justify what you want to happen anyway.

On the contrary, your posts give me alot to think about, you really make a strong case.

I just remember the "pimp" element to this issue.

kooky talk

Fantasy camp is thataway ------------->

Young Danes have already killed far too many foreigners in the name of "our freedoms" and they are still doing it in Afghanistan.

Your opinion on this particular war doesn't invalidate the usefulness of the military as a whole.

 

[The Atheist]

If prostitution was legalized, regulated and taxed, would there not still be a large amount of people doing it illegally? I mean, for example, those addicted to drugs, gambling or people who just don't see another way to make money. Why would someone in a situation like that want to pay tax on their money? Resources would still be spent on prosecuting illegal prostitution. Prostitution is here to stay, if it's made legal there will always be people willing to break that law to make tax-free money.

Prostitution has been legalised here for a few years now and the industry is far cleaner than before it was legalised.

Yes, there are still illegal hookers, but why would a John go to an illegal hooker for what he can get for the same price next door - and without the potential of having the cops bust in while he's aboard? The cops have targeted illegal and underage prostitution and have been far more successful at doing so now that their targets are clearer by removing the vast majority of legal hookers from their sights.

I know, I haven't studied this issue at length, so maybe I am making an argument from ignorance. But I think it's common knowledge that most women who choose this practice don't do it because that's what they really want to do with their lives.

"Common knowledge"?

Common misconception, maybe. Well over 95% of hookers here are legal and do it for financial reasons. They realise there's money in then thar valleys and take it. I have a friend who runs a fairly large "establishment" and her girls put it very simply - "I can work 40 hours in an office for maybe $700. I can make double that in two nights."

 

[egslim]

If prostitution was legalized, regulated and taxed, would there not still be a large amount of people doing it illegally?

Experience with alcohol suggests the answer is no. For a while it was prohibited, now it is legalised and taxed. Perhaps there are still some who sell it illegally without tax, but their number is no doubt tiny compared to during prohibition.

Why would someone in a situation like that want to pay tax on their money?

Illegal business is always more expensive, since it has to take the lack of legal protection and the risk of discovery into account. Legal is cheaper, even if taxes are taken into account. Especially since legal businesses will inform the authorities of their illegal competition, because that improves their own competitative advantage even further.

 

[CyCrow]

I vote for:

Prostitution should be legal but strictly regulated. Regulations should include:
- Protection against sexually transmitted diseases.
- Protection against violence or any forms of abuse, from clients or from pimps.
- Minimum age requirement.
- Special pension schemes that take into account the early retirement age.
In order to enforce these conditions, prostitution should only be allowed in authorised brothels where the prostitutes can work in safety. Clients are obliged to register personal details and are subject to security checks.

If we can detach the violence and abuse from prostitution, I'm all for it being legal. I guess that this is an impossible utopia. As far as I can tell, it doesn't make much difference if prostitution is legal or illegal: it keeps on existing and keeps on providing a framework for violence against women.

A couple of links: an argument against decriminalizing prostitution and a "job ad" that gives an idea of typical working conditions.

Do you really believe those are "typical" working conditions? I'd call those sites very biased. The span of working conditions for prostitutes varies enourmously, with the "bottom" end being dominated by drug abusers or extreme poverty, usually combined with illegality and the inability to get help from police. Illegality creates the need for pimps.

Legal prostitution works, at least in western societies like Germany. As for your regulations, and how they work in legal brothels today:

- STDs: Condoms are routinely used for intercourse. Girls are tested regularily. HIV is a virtually non-existing problem, and other STDs are no more common than the general population.

- Violence: Laws apply there just as much as in the rest of society. Anyone trying to rape a girl in a legal brothel would most likely be heading for jail.

- Age: 18 is the minimum age, some places may have minimum age of 21.

- Pension schemes: Are you proposing special forced pension savings? This should be up to the working girls discretion. Still, any taxes and pension savings should apply as with regular work.

- Client security checks: Why is this neccessary? In the case of outcalls, this happens automatically, at least to the degree that the police can investigate if anything happens to the girl. For incalls at a brothel this seems unneccessary, but the establishment would of course be able to turn away potential clients at their discretion. As discretion is important for many clients, I suspect this is suggested primarily to scare them away.

Finally, I firmly believe that legal prostitution takes care of the majority of the demand for services, makes it much safer for both sexworkers and clients, and removes a lot of the attendant criminality often associated with it.

// CyCrow

 

[BPSCG]

What difference does that make? Since when does "usefulness" or "value" have anything to do with whether an activity should be legal or not?

If it did, Paris Hilton would be illegal.

She probably should be anyway.