Should prostitution be legal?

[dann]

I doubt there is any country on planet earth where prostitution doesn't exisit. Elimanating poverty won't make prostituion go away, it will only make it more expensive.

Some men can't or won't develop relationships based on affection and/or love, that doesn't mean they still don't want sex. That's reality. dann, your arguments against prostitution are intellectually based but it's a non-intellecutal topic.

The only way prostitution can end is if men's sex drives take a dramatic fall and I don't think that's ever going to happen.

You haven't provided evidence for that. I don't even think it is a claim that makes any sense; many prostitutes are able to earn quite reasonable incomes (and some even large incomes) but that does not cause them to stop. Apperently eliminating their own poverty does not cause their own prostitution to dissappear.

So, Earthborn, do you think that Alt+F4 (or anybody else) has provided evidence for their claim that prostitution is caused by men's sex drives? (This is one theory they have in common with extreme feminism, by the way!)
Right now there probably isn't a country where prostitution doesn't exist. There used to be, but when poverty returned, so did prostitution (= the need to sell sex to provide for yourself and your family!):

http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/AllSymbols/CAB2B9BDA29591C0802568AC00531E1B/$File/G0010672.doc?OpenElement

45. In her meetings in Havana, as well as in the provinces, most of the Special Rapporteur’s interlocutors held that, as a result of the Cuban revolution, Cuban society had succeeded in virtually eliminating prostitution. Prior to 1959, prostitution was widely stated to have existed out of need; the improvements in the economic and social status of women thereafter had eliminated that need. However, the Special Rapporteur was informed that with the gradual increase of tourism in Cuba, prostitution had been increasing in recent years, mostly in tourist destinations such as Havana and Varadero (…)

46. At the same time, however, the Special Rapporteur notes that with the rise of tourism, Cubans without access to the dollar economy and without employment in the much sought after tourism sector are inevitably at an economic disadvantage which is naturally exacerbated by the tightening of economic sanctions and contrasted with the attractions of a Western lifestyle brought in by tourists. The Special Rapporteur therefore believes that the temptation to earn hard currency from tourists is one that is hard to resist.

47. Other sources hold that Cuban prostitution today is characterized by women with professional and vocational education and careers who are unable to meet basic living costs from their local currency salaries. Unlike the traditional woman in prostitution who is considered a social outcast, the “jineteras” of today predominantly serve foreigners who pay in hard currency, and are considered “providers” for their families.

It is necessary to add that the "increase of tourism" followed in the attempt to alleviate the damage caused by the poverty that returned in the 1990s.

 

[qayak]

Right now I am trying to convince people that poverty should be eliminated in order to put an end to prostitution.

I think you are mistaken. Prostitution is a business and prostitutes are at all economic levels. Ending poverty will not end prostitution. Prostitution thrives because there is a demand for it and a ready supply of workes to fill the demand.

Poverty doesn't make addicts. Prostitution is often a way for addicts to get the money to buy their drugs. So, not only do you have to eliminate poverty, you also have to eliminate addiction in order to eliminate prostitution.

What will you have to eliminate in order to get rid of prostitution at higher economic levels? What could you have eliminated in order to put Heidi Fleiss into retirement?

 

[dann]

And to dann, I must say you were very cruel towards Mark in this thread.

Well, some people are very sensitive. Discussions about where to shop for cheap prostitutes did not seem to offend anybody ...

I don't know you, but you strike me as a person who cannot fathom why anyone would consider visiting a prostitute,

I can. You strike me as a person who find it very easy to 'fathom' only the john's point of view.

because you're own life experiences blind you to others' realities.

No, not really.

Perhaps you were one of those people who had a girlfriend from age thirteen on,

No.

always in a relationship,

No.

or attractive enough to go to the bar and flirt up a one night stand.

I don't know. I've never been interested in one-night stands. The two I had did not consist in going to a bar and flirting them up.

Do you know what it's like to be told you are ugly?

No, I'm totally unable to even imagine what it must be like. COME ON!

Do you know what it feels like to have a woman laugh at you when you ask her out?

Ditto.

Can you relate to constant rejection, finding that women will not even engage in conversation with you, or even look you in the eye? I can.

Oh, the empathy! Can you imagine what it's like to engage in sexual intercourse with men that other women would not even consider engaging in conversation with? Isn't it a blessing that we have social circumstances that force some people to do so!
(And I actually don't think that no woman would engage in conversation with Mark, but I can see why many women might be turned of by some of the ideas he might express during the conversation. Like I already said, I think that his problem is primarily one of self-esteem, but I could be wrong.)

I would not avail myself of a bawdy house, even if it was legal.

Good for you.

It wouldn't feel right for me,

Ditto.

but I can certainly see where others would benefit from some intimate human contact, even if it is a bit cold and materialistic.

Prostitutes! A blessing in (a bit cold and materialistic) disguise! And if they don't benefit much from this kind of intimate human contact, there's always drugs. And, of course, the money. Long live the free will of prostitutes to ignore their own revulsion. In the meantime, we will ignore the choices that are thrust upon them.
(By the way, what about the guys who would benefit from some intimate human contact, but just can't afford it, Goodfellow?)

 

[dann]

Dann, have you read that article? I think not, as you are extracting conclusions which are not supported by the text. Firstly, the article has no statistics on any enjoyment of the work. It's worth noting that of all of the prostitutes interviewed, none of them seemed to say "I hate it" or anything along those lines. One actually said "it's a lot of fun" and another says she hadn't had an orgasm until she started working as a prostitute.

It is very hard to discuss with you when you are such a liar! I don't know if you deliberately misrepresent what you read, or if you simply don't understand it!

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/ch4-2.html
Reasons given by prostitutes (n = 128) for entering prostitution
Reasons for entering prostitution[/i]
Unemployed at the time 36,7
To support a family 18,7
To support a man 5,5
To support a drug habit 9,4
To earn more money than at present 44,5
Freedom from home (be independent) 3,9
To seek excitement in own life 5,5
For sexual enjoyment or experiment 3,1
To seek a love relationship 0,0 (So much for Pretty Woman!)
To satisfy curiosity about self or prostitution 26,8
For a specific purpose (education/debts/holiday/purchase an item/subsidise a study) 15,6

 

[dann]

What could you have eliminated in order to put Heidi Fleiss into retirement?

Heidi Fleiss, the pimp? I thought she already had been put into retirement!

 

[qayak]

Heidi Fleiss, the pimp?

The madam.

I thought she already had been put into retirement!

Which is why I asked what you would have done. Your "Eliminate Poverty, Eliminate Prostitution" theory doesn't hold much water.

 

[dann]

When Dann says "eliminate poverty" why do I suspect he means "take from those who have earned their wealth (e.g. entrepreneurs, business owners, or anyone else who actually works for a living) and give to every bum with a sob-story?"

Aren't you the bum with the sob-story?

Also, the most of the nations that have legalized or decriminalized prostitution (e.g. Netherlands, Australia, Germany) have more extensive and far-reaching welfare systems in place than the U.S.. If Dann was right, and prostitution was solely driven by economic desperation, these nations wouldn't have brothels and red light districts because poor women (note how he ignores male prostitutes) could easily go on the dole rather than "exploit themselves."

Even in so-called wellfare states like Denmark you don't go on the dole 'easily'. There are people rummaging through trash cans here too! I haven't ignored male prostitutes. I have mentioned them a couple of times, but concentrated on the women, so this is just another lie. You appear to be the one who neglect male prostitutes when you consider where to find cheap prostitutes ...

Of course, I have a feeling that Dann will say that European socialism isn't socialist enough for his taste.

This is not really a question of taste, but what exactly are you talking about when you mention "European socialism"? Denmark is ruled by one of GWB's buddies!

Keep to the Membership Agreement and do not use insults.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[dann]

The madam.

Same thing.

Which is why I asked what you would have done. Your "Eliminate Poverty, Eliminate Prostitution" theory doesn't hold much water.

Big Hollywood money on the one hand, poor women (wannabe starlets, whatever) on the other ...
Ask Charlie Sheen how many rich heiresses were for sale!

 

[qayak]

Same thing.
Big Hollywood money on the one hand, poor women (wannabe starlets, whatever) on the other ...

Were they poor women or wannabe starlets? It makes a difference to your theory. I guess you will have to eliminate wannabe starlets along with poverty and addiction if you hope to eliminate prostitution!

Heidi Fleiss wasn't poor and she turned tricks.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Dann,

Chill out mate. You're getting a little hot under the collar there.

It is very hard to discuss with you when you are such a liar! I don't know if you deliberately misrepresent what you read, or if you simply don't understand it!

Let me quote what you said:

There aren't many women who actually enjoy this line of work.

Now go and read that table again, paying special attention to the title. That's right, it says reasons for entering prostitution. Not how the prostitutes felt after six months in the job. That would require different data - which simply is not present on that page! Now, if you want to research data on how the prostitutes felt after six months, a year, two years, etc., I suggest you look elsewhere than that report, as it does not back up your assertion.

And why did you only quote part of paragraph 45? The full paragraph states:

45. In her meetings in Havana, as well as in the provinces, most of the Special Rapporteur’s interlocutors held that, as a result of the Cuban revolution, Cuban society had succeeded in virtually eliminating prostitution. Prior to 1959, prostitution was widely stated to have existed out of need; the improvements in the economic and social status of women thereafter had eliminated that need. However, the Special Rapporteur was informed that with the gradual increase of tourism in Cuba, prostitution had been increasing in recent years, mostly in tourist destinations such as Havana and Varadero. The women who engage in prostitution were characterized as originating from families without morals or from dysfunctional families and it was emphasized that any prostitution that might exist in Cuba was not practised in order to meet economic needs, but rather as a result of crumbling social and moral values. Furthermore, as characterized by President Castro himself, Cuban women who sell sex are not prostitutes but rather “jineteras”, since no one is forcing them to do so “but they do it on their own”.

Note the bit I bolded. It would seem that the best way to stop prostitution in Cuba would be to ban tourists. And yet, the government of Cuba has not done this.

Regarding your posts, you need to do the following:
1) Show that poverty and prostitution are linked, so that the core cause of prostitution is poverty, as you claim,
2) Prove that the prostitutes do not enjoy the work, as you claim,
3) Show that making prostitution illegal is beneficial to the prostitutes themselves, and/or cuts down greatly on the actual numbers of prostitutes.

Finally, I would suggest you tempter your tone. Some of the items in the last post to Mark were rather distasteful, and you should retract them.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[andyandy]

Another very stupid question: 'and in the meantime, while we're waiting for prostitution to be "legalized" .....we do nothing?'
Right now I am trying to convince people that poverty should be eliminated in order to put an end to prostitution. That is not waiting for poverty to be eliminated and doing nothing.
.

your solution is to "eliminate poverty." How quickly can you do that in the world? Today? Tomorrow? Next week?

lol

what a joke

 

[Seismosaurus]

Oops

 

[Seismosaurus]

Denial, denial, denial ….
Lonewulf, yes, a lot of disgusting stuff takes place between ’consenting adults’. The masochist, however, agrees to the SM act for the sake of his/her own pleasure (that the Ms have this need to pretend that it isn’t for their pleasure doesn’t change the fact), the prostitute does not.

This is only partially true. In BDSM circles, it is not at all uncommon for a person who is not masochistic to allow a sadistic Dominant to hurt them purely because they know it will bring pleasure to that Dominant.

In fact, some Dominants even enjoy playing with a person in this way better than playing with a masochist, precisely because it gives them pleasure to know that the submissive is willingly accepting something they don't find pleasurable.

 

[dann]

Were they poor women or wannabe starlets? It makes a difference to your theory. I guess you will have to eliminate wannabe starlets along with poverty and addiction if you hope to eliminate prostitution!

They were probably both, and some of them addicts, too, I guess.

Heidi Fleiss wasn't poor and she turned tricks.

So you think that she was one of 3,1 percent?

 

[andyandy]

No, I'm talking about abolishing the need for streetwalkers to streetwalk! Your legalization plans, by the way, don't eliminate street prostitution, rape, pimps and drug abuse. That you don't want to consider this says a lot about you.

legalization plans aren't a panecea for all that's wrong with the prostitution industry - but in the real world you can't just make primary school arguments like "end all poverty!" as an excuse for not addressing the intricacies of a topic.

I'm talking about abolishing poor women's need to sell sex. You are unable to see this from any other point of view than that of the customer who is "using the service of prostitutes" (or in your terminology "those workers").

and your solution "end all poverty" - yes we know. How are you going to do it? And how soon can you finish?

 

[dann]

Now go and read that table again, paying special attention to the title. That's right, it says reasons for entering prostitution. Not how the prostitutes felt after six months in the job. That would require different data - which simply is not present on that page! Now, if you want to research data on how the prostitutes felt after six months, a year, two years, etc., I suggest you look elsewhere than that report, as it does not back up your assertion.

Let me quote what you said:

Firstly, the article has no statistics on any enjoyment of the work.

Now let me quote what the statistics in the article said:

Reasons for entering prostitution[/i]
(...)
For sexual enjoyment or experiment 3,1

Maybe you would like to see statistics of reasons for staying in prostitution! So go find them. My guess is that the answer "For sexual enjoyment or experiment" would drop far below 3,1 percent - and not just because experimentation soon stops being a reason for anything you do regularly.
That you try to talk your way out of an obvious lie does not surprise me.

And why did you only quote part of paragraph 45? The full paragraph states:

45. In her meetings in Havana, as well as in the provinces, most of the Special Rapporteur’s interlocutors held that, as a result of the Cuban revolution, Cuban society had succeeded in virtually eliminating prostitution. Prior to 1959, prostitution was widely stated to have existed out of need; the improvements in the economic and social status of women thereafter had eliminated that need. However, the Special Rapporteur was informed that with the gradual increase of tourism in Cuba, prostitution had been increasing in recent years, mostly in tourist destinations such as Havana and Varadero. The women who engage in prostitution were characterized as originating from families without morals or from dysfunctional families and it was emphasized that any prostitution that might exist in Cuba was not practised in order to meet economic needs, but rather as a result of crumbling social and moral values. Furthermore, as characterized by President Castro himself, Cuban women who sell sex are not prostitutes but rather “jineteras”, since no one is forcing them to do so “but they do it on their own”.

Note the bit I bolded. It would seem that the best way to stop prostitution in Cuba would be to ban tourists. And yet, the government of Cuba has not done this.

The government of Cuba has not done this for the reason that since the collapse of the USSR the country's economy has depended on tourism, i.e. tourism is a way of securing schools, hospitals etc.
When Cubans characterize prostitutes "as originating from families without morals or from dysfunctional families" and claim that "any prostitution that might exist in Cuba was not practised in order to meet economic needs, but rather as a result of crumbling social and moral values," they make an obvious mistake - one, which the article points out, by the way.
Cuba actually considers it an embarrassment that a phenomenon, which they took pride (and rightly so!) in abolishing along with Batista and US imperialism in the country, has returned. Just like bourgeois moralists they blame the women's morals instead of the social conditions. (They didn't learn much from Marx on this point.)

Regarding your posts, you need to do the following:
1) Show that poverty and prostitution are linked, so that the core cause of prostitution is poverty, as you claim,
2) Prove that the prostitutes do not enjoy the work, as you claim,
3) Show that making prostitution illegal is beneficial to the prostitutes themselves, and/or cuts down greatly on the actual numbers of prostitutes.

OK, so you and the other fans of prostitution need to show that
1) prostitution is caused by men's sex drive and not by women's need to sell sex in order to pay debts, feed their children and provide for themselves and their families,
2) that they enjoy being prostitutes, and therefore
3) would not stop even if they had better alternatives.

So far I'm the only one who has provided links to scientific articles and statistics, whereas the rest of you have come up with nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Finally, I would suggest you tempter your tone. Some of the items in the last post to Mark were rather distasteful, and you should retract them.

Finally, I would suggest that you stop being silly, stop misinterpreting the evidence I provide you with or go somewhere else with your sensitive taste. I did not call Mark anything that he did not already call unfortunate people who are out of a job. Why don't you complain to the moderators?

 

[andyandy]

OK, so you and the other fans of prostitution need to show that
1) prostitution is caused by men's sex drive and not by women's need to sell sex in order to pay debts, feed their children and provide for themselves and their families,
2) that they enjoy being prostitutes, and therefore
3) would not stop even if they had better alternatives.

no, you need to show how you're going to eliminate global poverty. Until then you're offering nothing to this debate.

 

[dann]

legalization plans aren't a panecea for all that's wrong with the prostitution industry - but in the real world you can't just make primary school arguments like "end all poverty!" as an excuse for not addressing the intricacies of a topic.

No, I guess you prefer the primary-school debate Should prostitution be legal? Yes or no? as an excuse for not addressing the causes of prostitution.

and your solution "end all poverty" - yes we know. How are you going to do it? And how soon can you finish?

That depends on the number of people who think that poverty is actually a very good idea, because it forces some people to sell sex to the unfortunate, sex-starved men who wouldn't otherwise get any.
When you want to put an end to something, be it prostitution or poverty, it is always a good idea to look at the things that cause it, in this case the way that work and wealth are organized in our society.

 

[andyandy]

When you want to put an end to something, be it prostitution or poverty, it is always a good idea to look at the things that cause it, in this case the way that work and wealth are organized in our society.

go on then. How are you going end global poverty?

 

[dann]

no, you need to show how you're going to eliminate global poverty. Until then you're offering nothing to this debate.

You totally misunderstand me again. I never intended to offer anything to this debate. I have criticized it and thus tried to ruin it for you from the very beginning! That you don't seem to need any evidence or statistics to back up your claims, doesn't really surprise me. 'I once knew a hooker who used to be a legal secretary', seems to be the best that you can come up with, the whole purerile lot of you.