Should New Zealand Change its flag?

[PhantomWolf]

I don't know what an All Black is, but unless it's bulletproof, it doesn't stand a chance in Chicago.

Well if you go by the legends, they probably are... Most other rugby teams seem to believe they stand ten feet high and breathe fire anyway.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Rugby?

Never mind, some Bears fan's grandmother will probably kill them.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I realized too late that there was a missing poll option which would have been, "I'm not a Kiwi, so it is not my *********** business". But consider the Planet X option as containing that one.

Very good. Will do.

 

[WildCat]

Better watch out, the All Blacks are in Chicago at the moment, after they finish mopping the floor with the US Eagles at Soldier Park on Saturday, they might have a few minutes to deal with other cheeky Americans too.

Is that anywhere near Soldier Field?

 

[Noztradamus]

Well, if that is the criteria then either Ireland or Ivory Coast has to change its flag right now. Or tomorrow. Soon, anyway.

Why? at present they can share one at the UN

 

[Ginarley]

You mean other then things such as flying it on Government buildings, for political events, as a standard for the military, for identifying NZ ships, and for state funerals? All things we really want to have associated with sport....

Well parliament is largely a sport, the military already use the fern quite a bit and surely fight for the country not the flag, and it seems more and more likely state funerals will be for an ex-all black these days so maybe unassociating from sport is a lost cause That aside, the fern represents much more than just the ABs or even sport - it really is one of our national symbols.

No, marketing emblems and the flag are not required to be the same, and I'd suggest again it's a bad idea. Marketing emblems are generally trademarked by the organisation doing the marketing. Besides, we use the Kiwi silhouette in a lot of NZ marketing too, it's probably just as recognisable as an NZ emblem as the fern is. I wouldn't be going for that either. Reality shows that very few countries have their nation emblems, plant or animal, on their flags. There is no need for us to do it either.

Not required perhaps, but when you are as small as we are we don't have the luxury of multiple emblems. Keep it simple and relatable. I'd be quite happy to go with a kiwi as well but it doesn't make as nice a flag imo.

Yeah because the story of our shared heritage of British colonists and the Pacific peoples who used the stars to guide them coming together to live in this land is so much a worse story to tell kids about than, oh, we got from a rugby team.

Not worse, but not much better. Presumably they used more stars to find Aus? More importantly that story reflects different heritages split on a flag - I'd rather a unified flag representing NZ as it is now, not how it was before.

Actually I'd be highly surprised if they didn't fight it. Organisations spend a lot of time and money investing into their brands, and losing control of them means losing all of that hard work. If the black flag with silver fern was adopted, the NZRFU would lose total control of their trademark. Imagine just the loss of income in gear sales when rivals started selling black rugby jerseys and other merchandising all emblazoned with the "New Zealand Flag".

You may be right about the ABs intent, but given the emblem for our official intellectual property office appears to be a silver fern, I am not sure this is an issue Moreover there are plenty of black jerseys with silver ferns already available on them and if I recall the ABs lost a case trying to get them to stop, so I am not sure the symbol itself is trademarked (I think the All Blacks text combined with it is though). If we were to rename the country to the All Blacks then that might be going too far

 

[PhantomWolf]

Not worse, but not much better. Presumably they used more stars to find Aus? More importantly that story reflects different heritages split on a flag - I'd rather a unified flag representing NZ as it is now, not how it was before.

All new Zealanders are represented by a sports flag? Really? What about those New Zealanders that don't like sport and have nothing to do with it, how is using the sports flag representing them?

ETA: If you want something that is representative of ALL New Zealanders, then something like the design I gave above is far better, with the connection to the current Flag via the Southern Cross, the Long White Cloud of Aotearoa with the koru which not only incorporates the Silver Fern but has a meaning of New Life and Growth, then the Red and Black of Maori and the Tino Rangatiratanga Flag colours over the Green of the land and pastures representing New Zealands agricultural heritage.

What does a black flag with a white fern say about us as a people? Nothing.

 

[angrysoba]

Why? at present they can share one at the UN

That's a good way to economize. Hey! I wonder if the UN does actually do this already expecting nobody to notice.

 

[Ginarley]

All new Zealanders are represented by a sports flag? Really? What about those New Zealanders that don't like sport and have nothing to do with it, how is using the sports flag representing them?

It's not a sports flag, it is an emblem used for a lot of different NZ enterprises including sports, government agencies, tourism and businesses.

ETA: If you want something that is representative of ALL New Zealanders, then something like the design I gave above is far better, with the connection to the current Flag via the Southern Cross, the Long White Cloud of Aotearoa with the koru which not only incorporates the Silver Fern but has a meaning of New Life and Growth, then the Red and Black of Maori and the Tino Rangatiratanga Flag colours over the Green of the land and pastures representing New Zealands agricultural heritage.

My main issue with your flag is it looks like a Tsunami It is also a bit complicated and I am not so sure about the green/blue from a design standpoint, but even so I'd still definitely take yours over the current one.

What does a black flag with a white fern say about us as a people? Nothing.

It says "here is a simple symbol universally associated with us, and us alone, and you can and do recognise us by it".

 

[megaresp]

...one with a silver fern on a black background.

I've thought this should be the NZ flag for years.

Despite living permanently in the UK and me being something of an Anglophile, I think it's time for NZ to grow up and leave the Union Flag behind.

Better still, changing to an icon that all New Zealanders (eta: except Phantom Wolf) will recognise as being distinctly 'Kiwi' has the additional advantage of me not getting our flag mixed up with Australia's and accidentally supporting them at something.

As you know, if I'm caught supporting Australia at something it means an immediate loss of passport, and 20 lashes next time I return home.

 

[megaresp]

But is associated with the "National" sports emblem, not generic sports. When people see that, they already think New Zealand. So why not extend it?

Its cool, its instantly recognisable, its different.

However, could someone explain how the fern came to be used in the first place? I believe there is a historical and heraldic connection for the English 3 lions emblem, what is the story behind the New Zealand Rugby fern?

You are completely right and Phanton Wolf is completely wrong. I have definitive proof, but I, err, lost it behind the sofa.

It has the same effect as Canada's Maple Leaf, but with 50% more Piratey goodness.

As for the history of NZ's use of the fern, my NZ state education let me down badly I'm afraid. I tried to Google 'history of NZ use of silver fern' and got a little more history than I bargained for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyathea_dealbata

 

[megaresp]

The silver fern frond design on a black background is a beautiful design and so totally synonymous with NZ. When you already have something that people automatically associate with the country more than the current flag then it really is a no-brainer IMO

EDIT:

OK I just saw all the replies stating why it can't be used. I should probably read before commenting in future.

Your first instinct was correct. NZ is too tiny and insignificant to have brand options. There is only one symbol that makes any kind of sense for NZ's flag.

 

[megaresp]

I would be willing to design NZ a flag, for only a modest enormous fee. I would incorporate all my knowledge of NZ, which consists of watching "Outrageous Fortune", which I assume is a completely accurate documentary portrayal of typical NZ life.

You have the contract. I have a 100 trillion Zimbabwe dollar bill* that I'm willing to put up.

* wrapped in plastic for its own protection

 

[megaresp]

They actually copied our flag. Besides, they keep suggesting changing theirs, so if we wait a bit longer, they will and it'll be sorted.

Yeah, but nobody is going to believe that. And our accent is hard to take seriously, especially when spluttering with outrage.

 

[megaresp]

for those having trouble....



Note. 5 Stars in Southern Cross, all white, 8 pointed, large one under the Jack. Thus Australian Flag.



Note 4 Stars in Southern Cross, Red with white border, 5 pointed, none under Jack. Thus NZ flag.

Bonus points to not mix these two up

And when you have to explain it you highlight the problem with the current flag.

 

[megaresp]

You mean other then things such as flying it on Government buildings, for political events, as a standard for the military, for identifying NZ ships, and for state funerals? All things we really want to have associated with sport....



No, marketing emblems and the flag are not required to be the same, and I'd suggest again it's a bad idea. Marketing emblems are generally trademarked by the organisation doing the marketing. Besides, we use the Kiwi silhouette in a lot of NZ marketing too, it's probably just as recognisable as an NZ emblem as the fern is. I wouldn't be going for that either. Reality shows that very few countries have their nation emblems, plant or animal, on their flags. There is no need for us to do it either.



Yeah because the story of our shared heritage of British colonists and the Pacific peoples who used the stars to guide them coming together to live in this land is so much a worse story to tell kids about than, oh, we got from a rugby team.



Actually I'd be highly surprised if they didn't fight it. Organisations spend a lot of time and money investing into their brands, and losing control of them means losing all of that hard work. If the black flag with silver fern was adopted, the NZRFU would lose total control of their trademark. Imagine just the loss of income in gear sales when rivals started selling black rugby jerseys and other merchandising all emblazoned with the "New Zealand Flag".

So essentially you're saying we don't want to let brand dictate our flag because we might lose out on merchandising opportunities

 

[megaresp]

Rugby?

Never mind, some Bears fan's grandmother will probably kill them.

Assume you mean the Chicago Bears, but am willing to consider a low-budget TV "Bear vs All Black" fictional fight scenario.

Now the Bears are the ones that wear body armour and helmets in case they the get an owie, right? I imagine their fan's grandmother's are similarly fragile.

 

[megaresp]

What about those New Zealanders that don't like sport and have nothing to do with it

I'm sure you'll both get over it.

...how is using the sports flag representing them?

By realising it's not a sports symbol. It has come to be a national symbol by default.

ETA: If you want something that is representative of ALL New Zealanders, then something like the design I gave above is far better...

In your mind, perhaps. Not in mine.[/quote]

What does a black flag with a white fern say about us as a people? Nothing.

Whether you like it or not it's already doing the job you claim it won't do in future. History has already passed you by.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It's not a sports flag, it is an emblem used for a lot of different NZ enterprises including sports, government agencies, tourism and businesses.



My main issue with your flag is it looks like a Tsunami It is also a bit complicated and I am not so sure about the green/blue from a design standpoint, but even so I'd still definitely take yours over the current one.



It says "here is a simple symbol universally associated with us, and us alone, and you can and do recognise us by it".

A fern? Really? I have never associated NZ with ferns.

IMO this is no time to re-invent national identity. It's gotta be a sheep. But a sheep could also be Scotland, if the Scots ever succeed in their secession bid. Therefore NZ needs a flag with an upside-down sheep, to denote its location in the Southern Hemisphere.

 

[rjh01]

A fern? Really? I have never associated NZ with ferns.

IMO this is no time to re-invent national identity. It's gotta be a sheep. But a sheep could also be Scotland, if the Scots ever succeed in their secession bid. Therefore NZ needs a flag with an upside-down sheep, to denote its location in the Southern Hemisphere.

I like the idea of a sheep. But get rid of the southern cross. That could be any country in the southern hemisphere. Put the fern there instead.