Should Janet Napolitino step down ?

[Euromutt]

So in your estimation the perfect DHSS is one who eschews taking the offensive in boarder security while favoring capitulation.

As an aside, "DHSS" generally stands for "Department of Health and Social Services," e.g. in the states of Alaska, Delaware and Missouri. It is not short for "Department of Homeland Security Secretary" because there is no such term, just like there's no "Department of the Treasury Secretary" or "Department of Agriculture Secretary." Janet Napolitano is the Secretary of Homeland Security; I suppose you could use an abbreviation like "SHS" or "USSHS."

And you're still misspelling "border."

So if I understand correctly, your beef with Janet Napolitano is that she didn't perform the job of the Secretary of Homeland Security while she was governor of Arizona, and you think that she will continue to not perform the job of Secretary of Homeland Security even though she now actually does hold that position.

Expensive boondoggles?

Projected cost of implementing "Real ID": $9.9 billion according to DHS, after downgrading its initial estimate of $23bn, which the National Governors Association and the National Conference of State Legislators thouhgt the more likely number. Projected cost constructing and maintaining the border fence, which would cover 700 miles of the border with Mexico, leaving the other 1,300 miles unfenced: $16.4m-$70m per mile (source), which translates to $11.5bn-$49bn total, not counting the cost of acquiring privately owned land, or the costs of labor if private contractors were used.

Yeah, I'd say blowing at least $21bn, but probably closer to $72bn--or more--on a couple of projects that aren't actually going to do a lot of good (and could do a major amount of harm in the case of "Real ID") is practically a textbook definition of "expensive boondoggle."

Denying the Maricopa Sheriffs Office $1.2 million for immigration enforcement is a waste of time?

No, I think it's a saving of both time and money to deny such funding to the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. Joe Arpaio probably doesn't understand this (he seems to have some difficulty with the concept of civil rights, limits of jurisdiction, and other annoying obstacles to his imposing his personal police state), but as a county-level official, immigration enforcement is not his job.

Napolitano doesn't believe in any course of action that will impede illegal crossings or assist in the apprehension of illegal aliens.

You've at best provided evidence that she was not interested in doing so while governor of Arizona. Note that I say "at best," because (as I noted) that stuff from Human Events was more than a little tendentious.

The last lot being Bush 43? Since when did he or his minions believe in securing the boarders?

Beats me. They were evidently more than happy to blow massive amounts of money on ineffective programs, though. They certainly didn't discourage Congressional Republicans (and the president is more or less presumed to be the leader of his party) from passing the relevant legislation.

Like your hero Napolitano, you have shot down every possible method to curtail illegal immigration while providing zero alternative solutions. Is that because you favor the so-called "comprehensive immigration reform?"

She's not my "hero"; I'd barely heard of her before she became Secretary of Homeland Security, and I didn't even pay much attention to her then up until this right-wing terrorist group report came along. But anyone who pisses off the Glen Becks and Bil O'Reillies of this world probably has something going for her in my book.

And as a matter of fact, I do favor "comprehensive immigration reform," not least because I'm a recent immigrant myself; dealing with the INS/USCIS was a royal pain in the bollocks for me, and I know I had it easy (I'm white, from a rich industrialized country, and I had a US citizen--my now-wife--petitioning for me). Frankly, I'm not that convinced illegal immigration needs to be curtailed; it's a manufactroversy that Tom Tancredo used to get himself noticed during the Republican presidential primaries, and in so doing, poisoned the whole race as the other candidates scrambled to catch up with his level of xenophobia. I can tell you that if Tancredo's grandparents had had to jump through the hoops that prospective immigrants do today, Tancredo wouldn't have been able to run for president here, because his family would still be living in Italy. I just love immigrants who want to see the door slammed behind them; selfish motherers.

 

[Euromutt]

Hope and Change, when does it start?

I for one have been Hoping that you're going to Change that unfunny mantra sometime real soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Springfork]

Keep Janet. She's good for several more huge screw-ups. When a dirty bomb comes across the Mexican border, Obama will throw her under the bus.

 

[leftysergeant]

Keep Janet. She's good for several more huge screw-ups. When a dirty bomb comes across the Mexican border, Obama will throw her under the bus.

That will happen about as soon as Darth Cheney develops a conscience and has a good idea.

I am waiting for that day to pick up my unicorn hide boots.

 

[leftysergeant]

"Rep. Lamar Smith, the author of the article, is the former chairman of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Claims. So now he is another of your sociopaths just like Arpaio? How did you conclude that Smith also has no conscience?

When i hear him denounce waterboarding as a crime and dirtbag Yoo as a war criminal, I will admit a possibility he has a conscience. Until then, I must just assume he is a Republican.

Did you just realize that you share Napolitano's concept of boarder enforcement?

I wasn't awarte that I did. I am aware that you pull other people's opinions out of your undies.

BTW: Have you given up using dailykos, media matters, huffpo, etc, as your go to authorities since they are left wing moonbats and must therefore be dismissed out of hand?

I rely more on life experience and Thom Hartman.

Have you stopped belieiving that the fat deaf eunuch deserves to hear apologies when a Republican official disses him? That is an indicator of mental health.

 

[Cicero]

As an aside, "DHSS" generally stands for "Department of Health and Social Services," e.g. in the states of Alaska, Delaware and Missouri. It is not short for "Department of Homeland Security Secretary" because there is no such term, just like there's no "Department of the Treasury Secretary" or "Department of Agriculture Secretary." Janet Napolitano is the Secretary of Homeland Security; I suppose you could use an abbreviation like "SHS" or "USSHS."

And you're still misspelling "border."

DHS is the proper acronym for Department of Homeland Security. Adding the extra "S" to denote "Secratary" is enough to warrant your grandiloquent post? Even the Homeland Security website says "Department of Homeland Security Secretary."

http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/releases/pr_1239817562001.shtm

So if I understand correctly, your beef with Janet Napolitano is that she didn't perform the job of the Secretary of Homeland Security while she was governor of Arizona, and you think that she will continue to not perform the job of Secretary of Homeland Security even though she now actually does hold that position.Projected cost of implementing "Real ID": $9.9 billion according to DHS, after downgrading its initial estimate of $23bn, which the National Governors Association and the National Conference of State Legislators thouhgt the more likely number. Projected cost constructing and maintaining the border fence, which would cover 700 miles of the border with Mexico, leaving the other 1,300 miles unfenced: $16.4m-$70m per mile (source), which translates to $11.5bn-$49bn total, not counting the cost of acquiring privately owned land, or the costs of labor if private contractors were used.

Do you have any evidence to support your contention that Napolitano has demonstrated any greater zeal for boarder security than she did as governor?

Yeah, I'd say blowing at least $21bn, but probably closer to $72bn--or more--on a couple of projects that aren't actually going to do a lot of good (and could do a major amount of harm in the case of "Real ID") is practically a textbook definition of "expensive boondoggle."
No, I think it's a saving of both time and money to deny such funding to the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. Joe Arpaio probably doesn't understand this (he seems to have some difficulty with the concept of civil rights, limits of jurisdiction, and other annoying obstacles to his imposing his personal police state), but as a county-level official, immigration enforcement is not his job.
You've at best provided evidence that she was not interested in doing so while governor of Arizona. Note that I say "at best," because (as I noted) that stuff from Human Events was more than a little tendentious.
Beats me. They were evidently more than happy to blow massive amounts of money on ineffective programs, though. They certainly didn't discourage Congressional Republicans (and the president is more or less presumed to be the leader of his party) from passing the relevant legislation.
She's not my "hero"; I'd barely heard of her before she became Secretary of Homeland Security, and I didn't even pay much attention to her then up until this right-wing terrorist group report came along. But anyone who pisses off the Glen Becks and Bil O'Reillies of this world probably has something going for her in my book.

I am sure your familiarity with Napolitano and DHS is limited since you still refer to the position as "Secretary of Homeland Security" and not "Department of Homeland Security Secretary."

And as a matter of fact, I do favor "comprehensive immigration reform," not least because I'm a recent immigrant myself; dealing with the INS/USCIS was a royal pain in the bollocks for me, and I know I had it easy (I'm white, from a rich industrialized country, and I had a US citizen--my now-wife--petitioning for me). Frankly, I'm not that convinced illegal immigration needs to be curtailed; it's a manufactroversy that Tom Tancredo used to get himself noticed during the Republican presidential primaries, and in so doing, poisoned the whole race as the other candidates scrambled to catch up with his level of xenophobia. I can tell you that if Tancredo's grandparents had had to jump through the hoops that prospective immigrants do today, Tancredo wouldn't have been able to run for president here, because his family would still be living in Italy. I just love immigrants who want to see the door slammed behind them; selfish motherers.

At least you singed the guest book when you entered the U.S. border.

 

[kallsop]

Did you hear her dumb comments about the Mexican Flu scare? To paraphrase, it's too late to close the border because we have flu cases here. Is she really that ignorant? (rhetorical question)

Hope and Change, one flu death at a time.

 

[Euromutt]

Do you have any evidence to support your contention that Napolitano has demonstrated any greater zeal for boarder security than she did as governor?

That's funny, I thought it was your job to provide evidence that she hasn't, seeing as how you made the initial claim that she's no good in the job.

I am sure your familiarity with Napolitano and DHS is limited since you still refer to the position as "Secretary of Homeland Security" and not "Department of Homeland Security Secretary."

I had to deal with DHS's Citizenship and Immigration Services a fair bit while I was going through the process of becoming first a permanent resident, and then a citizen.

Oh, hey, what's this? Title 6, §112 of the United States Code:

(a) Secretary
(1) In general
There is a Secretary of Homeland Security, appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate.

"Secretary of Homeland Security." As a matter of fact, if you Google it, you'll find the U.S. Code speaks only of the "Secretary of Homeland Security," but at no point does it speak of the "Department of Homeland Security Secretary." It's one thing to write something like "the Department of Homeland Security Secretary" in full for clarity, but when you use an abbreviation, you're opting for brevity at the expense of clarity, and it is therefore important that the abbreviation you use be readily traceable to the term you mean. Feel free to Google "DHSS" and see if any results come up referring to the "Department of Homeland Security Secretary" by that abbreviation in official usage; I'm not finding any.

At least you singed the guest book when you entered the U.S. border.

I did a damn sight more than merely "sign the guest book." It's not 1910 or 1920 anymore, when you could just show up at Ellis Island and, in 98% of cases, have legal residency in 3-5 hours (and that's passengers traveling steerage; first- and second-class passengers generally even have to undergo inspection at Ellis). Now, it can take six months and several hundred dollars to even get your visa.

And for your info, it's estimated that about half the illegal immigrants currently present in the US did "sign the guest book"; they entered on legally issued non-immigrant visas, but stayed after their visas ran out.

 

[Cicero]

That's funny, I thought it was your job to provide evidence that she hasn't, seeing as how you made the initial claim that she's no good in the job.

I have yet to see her perform any duties that result in stemming the flow of illegal immigration. Is not doing your job evidence? I guess the evidence is that there is no evidence of her doing her job.

I had to deal with DHS's Citizenship and Immigration Services a fair bit while I was going through the process of becoming first a permanent resident, and then a citizen.

How long did this process take and why did you feel you could follow the rules instead of willfully breaking U.S. law?

Oh, hey, what's this? Title 6, §112 of the United States Code:"Secretary of Homeland Security." As a matter of fact, if you Google it, you'll find the U.S. Code speaks only of the "Secretary of Homeland Security," but at no point does it speak of the "Department of Homeland Security Secretary." It's one thing to write something like "the Department of Homeland Security Secretary" in full for clarity, but when you use an abbreviation, you're opting for brevity at the expense of clarity, and it is therefore important that the abbreviation you use be readily traceable to the term you mean. Feel free to Google "DHSS" and see if any results come up referring to the "Department of Homeland Security Secretary" by that abbreviation in official usage; I'm not finding any.

All this because you couldn't google DHSS?

I did a damn sight more than merely "sign the guest book." It's not 1910 or 1920 anymore, when you could just show up at Ellis Island and, in 98% of cases, have legal residency in 3-5 hours (and that's passengers traveling steerage; first- and second-class passengers generally even have to undergo inspection at Ellis). Now, it can take six months and several hundred dollars to even get your visa.

It takes $200 and over three months to get an NFA form approved. Welcome to American bureaucracies. Legal immigration is not the problem. Back in the 1920's, the flow of illegal immigrants was 60,000 a year as opposed to the 1 million that currently enter and stay every year.

And for your info, it's estimated that about half the illegal immigrants currently present in the US did "sign the guest book"; they entered on legally issued non-immigrant visas, but stayed after their visas ran out.

Is this supposed to be an encouraging stat? Half the illegal aliens were illegal from the beginning, while the other half became illegal because they disregarded the stipulations on their visa.

Odd that your birth country, the benefactor of the Statue of Liberty, has tightened immigration requirements as well. You are correct. It ain't 1920 anymore.

 

[Cicero]

Regarding the Air Force One and F-16 escort fly-over Manhattan:

"I don't know how that happened. Mistakes were made. Mistakes shouldn't be repeated." Janet Napolitano, Department of Homeland Security Secretary

Good to see that Napolitano's all purpose answers as governor are still her all purpose answers as DHSS.

http://perfunction.typepad.com/perf...-gibbs-napalitano-twist-over-nyc-photoop.html

 

[linusrichard]

Odd that your birth country, the benefactor of the Statue of Liberty,

Isn't the statue of Liberty French? Isn't Euromutt Dutch?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Isn't the statue of Liberty French? Isn't Euromutt Dutch?

I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA.

Oh. Bugger.

 

[Cicero]

Isn't the statue of Liberty French? Isn't Euromutt Dutch?

Yes on both counts. My mistake. I misidentified the horizontal tricolor of the Netherlands for the French vertical tricolor.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA. I will not make a comment about education in the USA.

Oh. Bugger.

Yup, he got the flag wrong, therefore all his points are invalid, Janet Reno is magically perfect and all Americans are stupid

 

[Euromutt]

I'm going to have to address some points out of order for clarity.

All this because you couldn't google DHSS?

I was perfectly capable of Googling it; I just didn't get any results, for the very simple reason that the abbreviation "DHSS" is not recognized as meaning the "Secretary of Homeland Security" exceopt among people who blog about disliking Janet Napolitano. And for all I know, they're all you.

And frankly, I wouldn't be making quite as much of an issue if this if it weren't for the fact that you insisted that you were correct in using the abbreviation as such, and made out that I am somehow ignorant for thinking otherwise. If you'd said "I know it's not strictly speaking correct, I'm just using it because I can't be arsed to type out 'secretary of Homeland Security' every time," I'd have said "fair enough" and left it at that.

I have yet to see her perform any duties that result in stemming the flow of illegal immigration. Is not doing your job evidence?

No, that would be begging the question. If you're asking me to accept that she's not doing her job, you can't ask me to take that same point as axiomatic.

I guess the evidence is that there is no evidence of her doing her job.

Well there haven't been any terrorist attacks on US soil in the past three months, so she must be doing something right. And hey, didn't that report come out concerning possible threats from right-wing terrorist groups? Given what those types got up to during the Clinton administration, that's a realistic threat.

Is this supposed to be an encouraging stat? Half the illegal aliens were illegal from the beginning, while the other half became illegal because they disregarded the stipulations on their visa.

It means that no matter how many billions you blow on some stupid fence on the border, illegal immigrants are going to get in. I also brought up that point to illustrate that gaining legal US residency is not merely a question of "signing the guest book," as half the illegal immigrant population did just that, and are still considered illegals.

How long did this process take and why did you feel you could follow the rules instead of willfully breaking U.S. law?

Six months to get my visa, two years conditional residency, three years permanent residency. In the process, I had to submit the same supporting documents to INS/USCIS three times: once to get my visa, once to gain permanent residency, once to apply for citizenship.

The reasons I felt secure in following the rules is because I came into the country as the fiance of a US citizen, with the stated intent of marrying her upon entry. Being married or closely related to a US citizen is the most certain way of gaining permanent residency. Without that, it's a lottery; your paperwork can be in order, and you can pay the administrative fees to submit your application, but you can still be refused entry. Sorry, try again next year.

It takes $200 and over three months to get an NFA form approved. Welcome to American bureaucracies. Legal immigration is not the problem. Back in the 1920's, the flow of illegal immigrants was 60,000 a year as opposed to the 1 million that currently enter and stay every year.

Well gee, don't you think that maybe the fact that it's become more difficult to legally immigrate to the US might contribute to the increased number of illegal immigrants? In 1907, 1.25 million immigrants passed through Ellis Island; that's not counting first- and second-class passengers entering through New York, nor immigrants entering via other ports. In recent years, the number of legal immigrants into the US has been less (1.1m-1.3m) than the number of immigrants a century ago, even though the world's population has more than tripled in the interim.

Of course, there's an implicit premise lurking in this discussion, namely that it is necessary and desirable to seal off the border with Mexico, and curb illegal immigration.

The fact is that, to get work in the US, you generally have to provide an SSN to your employer. Illegal immigrants don't have an SSN, so they give one that doesn't belong to them. I.e. they end up paying income tax and social security premiums, only under someone else's name. In other words, most illegal immigrants pay into the public coffers without getting the benefits. They're net contributors to public funds. Plus, most of them perform jobs that Americans would prefer not to do. How many people are champing at the bit to be busboys, crop pickers, landscapers or non-union construction workers?

When it comes to agriculture, crops will be grown where there's labor. If it weren't for migrant labor, much of it illegal, the crops that are currently grown in the California central valley would instead be grown in Mexico, and picked by the exact same people.

Then there's the notion that the southern border is somehow a conduit for foreign terrorists. In case nobody noticed, none of the 9/11 hijackers came into the country illegally, and certainly not by sneaking across the border from Mexico, and there's zero evidence that any other terrorist has so much as tried. And even if tightening the land border were to curb the amount of drugs coming across, as long as there's a demand in the US, the traffickers will find a way.

And that's what it comes down to in the end. As long as there's a demand in the US for stuff--be it labor or narcotics--that has to be smuggled in, it will be smuggled in. If you think there's a problem, the only way to address it is to reduce the demand. Good luck with that.

 

[Cicero]

Did you hear her dumb comments about the Mexican Flu scare? To paraphrase, it's too late to close the border because we have flu cases here. Is she really that ignorant? (rhetorical question)

Hope and Change, one flu death at a time.

"Closing the border is not only complicated, but would really cost millions of dollars in terms of trade and commerce." J.N.

The person in charge of homeland security is more concerned about NAFTA than the safety of Americans? Napolitano didn't make any effort to curtail the flow of illegals crossing into Arizona as governor, and now as DHSS, she is not persuaded to change her views even when the health of the Nation is at stake.

Locking the barn door after the horse has the swine flu is the same logic Napolitano had regarding illegal immigration.

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=327483&comments=1

 

[Cicero]

I'm going to have to address some points out of order for clarity.
I was perfectly capable of Googling it; I just didn't get any results, for the very simple reason that the abbreviation "DHSS" is not recognized as meaning the "Secretary of Homeland Security" exceopt among people who blog about disliking Janet Napolitano. And for all I know, they're all you.

You figured I had moved Napolitano to the Department of Health & Social Services since you could not figure out any possible meaning for the acronym DHSS as it relates to Napolitano?

And frankly, I wouldn't be making quite as much of an issue if this if it weren't for the fact that you insisted that you were correct in using the abbreviation as such, and made out that I am somehow ignorant for thinking otherwise. If you'd said "I know it's not strictly speaking correct, I'm just using it because I can't be arsed to type out 'secretary of Homeland Security' every time," I'd have said "fair enough" and left it at that.
No, that would be begging the question. If you're asking me to accept that she's not doing her job, you can't ask me to take that same point as axiomatic.

No. You made an "issue of it" before I even posted the Homeland Security website.

Edited by Darat: 

Breach of Rule 12 removed.

. Now you believe DHSS is some sort of pejorative acronym created by critics of Napolitano?

Well there haven't been any terrorist attacks on US soil in the past three months, so she must be doing something right. And hey, didn't that report come out concerning possible threats from right-wing terrorist groups? Given what those types got up to during the Clinton administration, that's a realistic threat.

Napolitano wasn't even in the loop about the Air Force One fly-over Manhattan. If she doesn't know what is going on regarding Homeland Security possible probems as initiated by the U.S. Government, how is she going to get a handle on what Islamic Fundamentalists are planning?

It means that no matter how many billions you blow on some stupid fence on the border, illegal immigrants are going to get in. I also brought up that point to illustrate that gaining legal US residency is not merely a question of "signing the guest book," as half the illegal immigrant population did just that, and are still considered illegals.

Until the fence on the Southern Border is built to the same standard as the ones constructed in areas where illegal immigration has been impacted, we will never know its true effectiveness. Those immigrants who signed the guest book were not considered illegals until their VISA expired.

Six months to get my visa, two years conditional residency, three years permanent residency. In the process, I had to submit the same supporting documents to INS/USCIS three times: once to get my visa, once to gain permanent residency, once to apply for citizenship.

Is bureaucratic red tape a reason to break U.S. immigration laws? Why shouldn't all immigrants stand in line the way you did to become a legal resident?

The reasons I felt secure in following the rules is because I came into the country as the fiance of a US citizen, with the stated intent of marrying her upon entry. Being married or closely related to a US citizen is the most certain way of gaining permanent residency. Without that, it's a lottery; your paperwork can be in order, and you can pay the administrative fees to submit your application, but you can still be refused entry. Sorry, try again next year.

Legal residency in the U.S. is not a right, it is a privilege. Had you not married a U.S. citizen would you have moved here from Holland?

Well gee, don't you think that maybe the fact that it's become more difficult to legally immigrate to the US might contribute to the increased number of illegal immigrants? In 1907, 1.25 million immigrants passed through Ellis Island; that's not counting first- and second-class passengers entering through New York, nor immigrants entering via other ports. In recent years, the number of legal immigrants into the US has been less (1.1m-1.3m) than the number of immigrants a century ago, even though the world's population has more than tripled in the interim.

But the U.S. population is now over 300 million. Back in 1910, the U.S. population was under 100 million. Why is it the problem of the U.S. what the world's population is? The U.S. is trying, unsuccessfully, to deal with its own swelling population.

Of course, there's an implicit premise lurking in this discussion, namely that it is necessary and desirable to seal off the border with Mexico, and curb illegal immigration.

Your own harrowing account of how a Dutch citizen manged to get legal residency in the U.S. undermines your notion that the bureaucracy is stacked against Hispanics.

The fact is that, to get work in the US, you generally have to provide an SSN to your employer. Illegal immigrants don't have an SSN, so they give one that doesn't belong to them. I.e. they end up paying income tax and social security premiums, only under someone else's name. In other words, most illegal immigrants pay into the public coffers without getting the benefits. They're net contributors to public funds. Plus, most of them perform jobs that Americans would prefer not to do. How many people are champing at the bit to be busboys, crop pickers, landscapers or non-union construction workers?

Come on. For decades, and even now, illegals were getting paid in cash. They never provided any SSN, fake, or otherwise. That is a complete myth about American workers not wanting or taking jobs that are done by illegals.

When it comes to agriculture, crops will be grown where there's labor. If it weren't for migrant labor, much of it illegal, the crops that are currently grown in the California central valley would instead be grown in Mexico, and picked by the exact same people.

That was the reason for the Bracero Program. But in case you have not been to a supermarket in the last decade, most of the fruit and vegetables are from MEXICO.

Then there's the notion that the southern border is somehow a conduit for foreign terrorists. In case nobody noticed, none of the 9/11 hijackers came into the country illegally, and certainly not by sneaking across the border from Mexico, and there's zero evidence that any other terrorist has so much as tried. And even if tightening the land border were to curb the amount of drugs coming across, as long as there's a demand in the US, the traffickers will find a way.

Napolitano was one of those who didn't notice that the 9/11 hijackers didn't come into the country illegally, never mind that they didn't pass through the Canadian border.

And that's what it comes down to in the end. As long as there's a demand in the US for stuff--be it labor or narcotics--that has to be smuggled in, it will be smuggled in. If you think there's a problem, the only way to address it is to reduce the demand. Good luck with that.

We seemed to switch from illegal immigration to narcotics smuggling. But Napolitano doesn't want to close the border to illegals, drug smugglers, or Swine Flu carriers.

 

[A'isha]

Did you hear her dumb comments about the Mexican Flu scare? To paraphrase, it's too late to close the border because we have flu cases here. Is she really that ignorant? (rhetorical question)

"Closing the border is not only complicated, but would really cost millions of dollars in terms of trade and commerce." J.N.

The person in charge of homeland security is more concerned about NAFTA than the safety of Americans? Napolitano didn't make any effort to curtail the flow of illegals crossing into Arizona as governor, and now as DHSS, she is not persuaded to change her views even when the health of the Nation is at stake.

"WHO is not recommending travel restrictions related to the outbreak of the influenza A(H1N1) virus. Today, international travel moves rapidly, with large numbers of individuals visiting various parts of the world. Limiting travel and imposing travel restrictions would have very little effect on stopping the virus from spreading, but would be highly disruptive to the global community.

Influenza A(H1N1) has already been confirmed in many parts of the world. The focus now is on minimizing the impact of the virus through the rapid identification of cases and providing patients with appropriate medical care, rather than on stopping its spread internationally. Furthermore, although identifying the signs and symptoms of influenza in travellers can be an effective monitoring technique, it is not effective in reducing the spread of influenza as the virus can be transmitted from person to person before the onset of symptoms. Scientific research based on mathematical modelling indicates that restricting travel will be of limited or no benefit in stopping the spread of disease. Historical records of previous influenza pandemics, as well as experience with SARS, have validated this point."

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/guidance/public_health/travel_advice/en/index.html

"[G]oing into this [we learned] if you had a pandemic or potential pandemic strain and you implemented very quickly stringent entry screening, you might be able to delay the widespread dissemination in your country by a few weeks. Now, a few weeks, that doesn't sound like much. But if you don't have it in your border, that few weeks may allow you to do the kinds of things we've been doing now, implementing surveillance, distributing countermeasures, doing those kinds of things. Once it's already inside, as the president said last night, the horse is out of the barn. So those measures don't have any added value."

http://www.cdc.gov/media/transcripts/2009/t090430.htm

 

[pipelineaudio]

At this point, its not so much international travel per se thats the issue for us, its economy and crime.

We already don't have enough tamiflu for arizona's citizens. In case you aren't aware, Arizona IS mexico's primary health care provider. Before this flu outbreak, hospital squatting was already at debilitating levels. If the worst case CT's are true (and Im not convinced they will be, because travelling with the flu doesnt sound fun) were gonna be wishing for the good ol days of six hour wait times for broken limbs

 

[Steelmage]

Should reading comprehension be a prequalification for posting on an internet forum?

Daredelvis

No, because that will take the fun out of it.