Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[Guest]

R-S. You are missing the very point RichardM and I are making. This is not about mainstream use but false advertising.

No I am not Lothian, what is it with me today and people from north of the border They all have their porridge spiked ?

Just commenting that arnica is in mainstream medicine now.

Just had major spat with one kilt wearer, who decide my cardoor looked great modified to fit his., then blamed me for phaving the cheek to park where I had been for the last 10 hours

Today is one of those days that started great and is ending up with me wishing I was never born

 

[Guest]

The limit is reached around 12C (or 24X). By R-S' own rules, then, are we all agreed that all homeopathic nostrums at 12C or higher are pure water and therefore sold fraudulently?

Cheers,

Oi you can cut that my rules milarky right out for a goddam start, you know full well I quoted what the I had read 4 years approx ago, so dont you try to make me into a practising homeopath.

Godammit I am not.

 

[Guest]

Hi R-S -

I think that we've established several times on this thread that above a certain level of C (17C, was it?) there is no active ingredient in a homeopathic remedy.

*does a half headtilted smirk* Hey rm

A homeopathic remedy I said all the complete range of homeopathic remedies, if they are all found to be the same then who cares just get rid of it and only then on that substianted proof.

 

[Guest]

Oi you can cut that my rules milarky right out for a goddam start, you know full well I quoted what the I had read 4 years approx ago, so dont you try to make me into a practising homeopath.

Godammit I am not.

Try reading what I wrote and then try again.

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

Try reading what I wrote and then try again.

Cheers,

you wote by my as in R-s own rules, that wasnt needed was it.

yes some are agreed its water. I retract godammits

 

[richardm]

*does a half headtilted smirk* Hey rm

A homeopathic remedy I said all the complete range of homeopathic remedies, if they are all found to be the same then who cares just get rid of it and only then on that substianted proof.

Okay, let me just quickly rephrase that, then

I think that we've established several times on this thread that above a certain level of C (12C, was it?) there is no active ingredient in any homeopathic remedy.

Ah yes, that's better. Because, y'see, the method means the same amount of dilution occurs, no matter what the original substance was. Any 20C solution will have the same amount of active ingredient as any other 20C solution.

This is good progress, then - now we have full agreement that we should bin most homeopathic remedies without any further ado!

 

[Guest]

Okay, let me just quickly rephrase that, then
Ah yes, that's better. Because, y'see, the method means the same amount of dilution occurs, no matter what the original substance was. Any 20C solution will have the same amount of active ingredient as any other 20C solution.

This is good progress, then - now we have full agreement that we should bin most homeopathic remedies without any further ado!

If that is what you want, yea ok.

 

[Guest]

If that is what you want, yea ok.

You said that anything that can be shown to be pure water should not be sold fraudulently. You also decried the lack of testing. You have been told (and we can demonstrate this if you will sit a bit through the equations) that dilutions at or above 12c (24x), by Avogadro's law, are statistically guaranteed to have zero molecules of the presumed active substance.

Are you now trying to back out of the agreement that water masquerading as "remedy" is fraudulent?

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

You said that anything that can be shown to be pure water should not be sold fraudulently.

yes agree always have.

You also decried the lack of testing.

? if that means they should test the lot...yes they should if not huh?

You have been told (and we can demonstrate this if you will sit a bit through the equations) that dilutions at or above 12c (24x), by Avogadro's law, are statistically guaranteed to have zero molecules of the presumed active substance.

yes mother

Are you now trying to back out of the agreement that water masquerading as "remedy" is fraudulent?

BillyHoyt what are you harping on about now.

 

[Guest]

BillyHoyt what are you harping on about now.

I don't know how much clearer the question can be. I'll try it as a syllogism:

Major Premise: Pure Water sold as "remedy" should be illegal.
Minor Premise: Homeopathic nostrums at or above 12C (24X) are pure water yet are sold as "remedies".
Conclusion: Sale of homeopathic nostrums at or above 12C (24X) should be illegal.

Do you agree?


Cheers,

 

[Guest]

BillyHoyt, thought I had answered that already?
1 removed and banned yes
2/3 same as above if proven all are the same.

Made illegal, if its removed no need to illegalise it would there be?

subject to change as I trying to cook my tea and read mail as well as be bamboozled by you at the same time.

 

[Flatworm]

BillyHoyt, thought I had answered that already?
1 removed and banned yes
2/3 same as above if proven all are the same.

That's already been done, several times, on this very forum. I know you're no fan of maths but the proof is in the numbers. You can't just disregard the facts because you find them dry and boring.

 

[Guest]

That's already been done, several times, on this very forum. I know you're no fan of maths but the proof is in the numbers. You can't just disregard the facts because you find them dry and boring.

flatworm hi

so are you saying EVERY homeopathic remedy has been tested throughly and the scientific studies and results verify ALL Homeopathic remedies are water.

 

[NoDeity]

The point should be that the basic principles of homeopathy are complete nonsense. The 'Law of Similarities" is nothing more than sympathetic magic. There is no logical or empirical reason for someone to think it's true. If that "law", which is the founding principle of homeopathy, is nonsense, then it follows that all of homeopathy is nonsense -- and it is. As if that weren't enough, there is no logical or empirical reason to think that a "cure" is going to be more effective the more it is diluted. It is plainly silly to claim that water has some kind of "memory", which is what Hahnemann claimed (see my previous message), as it is completely unsupported logically or empirically.

 

[Flatworm]

flatworm hi

so are you saying EVERY homeopathic remedy has been tested throughly and the scientific studies and results verify ALL Homeopathic remedies are water.

We don't need to test every homeopathic remedy. The numbers show that all homeopathic remedies with dilutions above 12C are pure water by the definition of their dilution notation.

Changing the mother tincture doesn't change anything. Using alcohol instead of water just leads to pure alcohol rather than pure water. There just aren't enough molecules to go around.

We don't need to go test for the presence of active ingredients in, say, a 30C remedy because if there is even a single molecule left it isn't 30C.

 

[Guest]

BillyHoyt, thought I had answered that already?
1 removed and banned yes
2/3 same as above if proven all are the same.

Made illegal, if its removed no need to illegalise it would there be?

subject to change as I trying to cook my tea and read mail as well as be bamboozled by you at the same time.

R-S,

That was a syllogism, drawn from a combination of statements previously made by you and by facts already in evidence. That is not "bamboozling," that is logic. Something about it seems to be eluding you.

The fact of the matter is we all agree water is not medicine. The fact of the matter is homeopathic nostrums at or above 12C are pure water. No testing needed.

Which part of this don't you understand?

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

Right... Not all Homeopathic remedies are just the WATER based remedies , geddit.

There's a whole range of them , please say you realise now when I say when all the range is tested and found to be only water then ban and remove the entire lot, I mean the entire range.

Which the same entire homeopathic remedies is what you are trying to illegalise based on one water based part, without testing the rest of the range. Geddit now?

Theres ...:-

Homeopathic Remedies 30c(trying to say illegalise as there only water )
Homeopathic Remedies 6c (")
Homeopathic Children's Products
Homeopathic Combinations
Homeopathic Cough Syrups
Homeopathic Creams
Homeopathic Lotions,Balms, Sprays
Homeopathic Ointments
Homeopathic Tinctures/Drops
Homeopathic Toothpaste


http://www.greensfoods.co.uk/index.asp/page=group/groupid=5/homeopathy.htm

When I say if all has been tested and proven to be nothing but water then yes remove the entire lot, if only some are tested and found to be such, then remove those that are false and label more clearly the rest as with providing more information.

 

[Elaborate]

It doesn't matter what the ingredient is diluted with, if teh concentration is below 12C, there are no molecules of active ingredient left.

 

[Guest]

Right... Not all Homeopathic remedies are just the WATER based remedies , geddit.

There's a whole range of them , please say you realise now when I say when all the range is tested and found to be only water then ban and remove the entire lot, I mean the entire range.

Which the same entire homeopathic remedies is what you are trying to illegalise based on one water based part, without testing the rest of the range. Geddit now?

Theres ...:-

Homeopathic Remedies 30c(trying to say illegalise as there only water )
Homeopathic Remedies 6c (")
Homeopathic Children's Products
Homeopathic Combinations
Homeopathic Cough Syrups
Homeopathic Creams
Homeopathic Lotions,Balms, Sprays
Homeopathic Ointments
Homeopathic Tinctures/Drops
Homeopathic Toothpaste


http://www.greensfoods.co.uk/index.asp/page=group/groupid=5/homeopathy.htm

When I say if all has been tested and proven to be nothing but water then yes remove the entire lot, if only some are tested and found to be such, then remove those that are false and label more clearly the rest as with providing more information.

How does the purpose of the product change my point? How does the inactive substance into which the "active" substance was diluted change the fact that there is no "active" substance left?

I don't care if it is diluted with water or alcohol or milk sugar or honey. I don't care if the claim is it cleans your teeth or cures your warts or sterilizes your private parts. There is no "active" ingredient at 12C or below.

Now are we agreed that any homeopathic nostrum diluted (with whatever inert ingredient) to 12C or below contains no "active" substance and is therefore sold fraudulently?

Cheers,

 

[xouper]

OK, I have a question. I have seen several comments in this thread that anything more dilute than 12C (24X) contains no molecules of homeopathic agent.

However, if I have a four gallon jug of homeopathic arsenic at a dilution of 13C (26X), then it should theoretically contain five molecules of arsenic.

Yes? No?

A homeopathic dilution of 12C means one molecule of homeopathic agent per 10²⁴ molecules of water.

Yes? No?

Is merely specifying the dilution factor, 12C, sufficient to determine how many molecules of arsenic are in the water if you don't also specify how many molecules of water?

How many milligrams of homeopathic dilution are added to each homeopathic sugar pill? Recall that in 24X there is about one molecule per 30,000 milligrams of water. So one pill may not contain any molecules of homeopathic agent even at dilutions of 21X (assuming 30 mgs of water per pill)?

Have I missed the point here?