Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[Guest]

Whenever I get a prescription filled, I get a sheet from the pharmacy which describes what the medicine is, instructions from taking it, and what the side effects are .

The side effects are always less severe than the disease itself.

We dont over here,until you have the medication in your hand,
I was given celebrex despite it saying I am asthmatic and its one of the big no no's with celebrex not to be prescribed to, and I got the raw end of its side effects( I got that instruction leaflet when I went and got the rest of the perscription having taken just 3 tablets by them I was screwed up) and often the our docs limit you to a 10 minute consultation only so you dont get a chance to say and the side effects are? Your out and the next conveyor belt patients is in.

Clelebrex isnt, how is arthritis worse than a burst bowel or heart failure or renal shutdown?

me

 

[richardm]

I'd just like to digress for a moment, R-S. We've touched a little on herbalism. Herbalism is the art of figuring out what plants do what for your benefit. We'll discount for the moment the "Doctrine of Signatures", that told us that God made plants in a particular shape in order to indicate what part of the body they'd heal. Let's look at the classic case of Aspirin.

We all know that the basis of aspirin can be found in willow bark. So you have a toothache: you peel off a bit of bark and chew away, and your toothache feels better. At this point, herbalism stops, happy with the result.

But some people aren't happy with it. Sometimes it doesn't work very well; sometimes it gives you bad stomach pains; often you end up with some sort of poorly tummy anyway if you use it often. And some of those people tried to work out why.

The general poorly tummy problem is, perhaps, because of the cellulose in the bark. Sometimes it doesn't work very well, perhaps because the dose of whatever-it-is in the bark is naturally lower - a bad summer? Sometimes it gives you very bad stomach pains because the dose of whatever-it-is is too high, and that causes problems.

What would be ideal would be to find out what is in the bark that helps the toothache, and isolate it so we can control the dose easily. Then we can work out what the right dose is for most people, and make it easy for them to get that right dose.

Doesn't that sound better than chewing a bit of bark?

For a large part, modern pharmaceuticals follow this model. Right now there are people in the rainforests analysing new plants, and people here analysing old plants.

Herbalism is just an amateur version of that, wouldn't you say?

 

[Segnosaur]

We dont over here,until you have the medication in your hand,
I was given celebrex despite it saying I am asthmatic and its one of the big no no's with celebrex not to be prescribed to, and I got the raw end of its side effects( I got that instruction leaflet when I went and got the rest of the perscription having taken just 3 tablets by them I was screwed up) and often the our docs limit you to a 10 minute consultation only so you dont get a chance to say and the side effects are?

Well, from the sounds of things, it looks like your pharmacist screwed up. Or your doctor. Unfortunately it happens. 99.9% of people will be perscribed the correct medicine... the 0.1% may get misdiganosed, or get medicine that they aren't supposed to take... much of medicine is about risk management.

And its unfortunate that you only got 10 minutes with your doc. However, I would rather spend 10 minutes with a doc that I knew could probably help me, than someone who is going to suggest a remedy which I know hasn't been proven. This is one of the big problems that modern medicine has. Far too many people want to spend time with their doctor... and when the doctor doesn't have enough time, they go to someone who will (like a Homeopath, or chiropractor), who may not have any real ability to help cure them, but because they spend time with the patient, the patient thinks they are doing a good job. (For example, see this thread: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10526 )

 

[xouper]

So where does it go? I mean what happens to the original solution - it can't disappear can it? Assuming that they don't throw any of it away?

Perhaps it might be interesting to look at some actual numerical examples. The following is my understanding of it, and I assume that if I got any part of it wrong, someone will correct me.

According to Avogadro, in a jar containing 18 grams of pure water, there are about <nobr>6x10²³</nobr> molecules of <nobr>H₂O.</nobr> Thus, in 30 grams of water, which is about one fluid ounce, there are about <nobr>10²⁴</nobr> molecules.

If you add just one molecule of a homeopathic agent to 1 ounce of water, then the dilution will be about 24X (or 12C).

If you add this one ounce dilution to 99 ounces of pure water (bringing the total to 100 ounces) and then divide it among a 100 jars each containing one ounce of dilution, then each of the hundred jars will contain a homeopathic dilution of 13C (or 26X).

Quiz question: How many of these jars contain a molecule of the original homeopathic agent?

Answer: Only one. The other 99 jars contain no molucules of the original homeopathic agent whatsoever.

If you repeat the previous step, (taking each jar and adding it to 99 ounces of pure water, and splitting that into a hundred more jars of one ounce each), you will have 10,000 jars, each with a dilution of 14C (or 28X).

And if you do this 16 more times, you will have a grand total of <nobr>10³⁶</nobr> jars, each containing one ounce of 30C dilution (or 60X).

Quiz question: How many of these jars contain a molecule of the original homeopathic agent?

Answer: Only one. The other bazillion jars contain no molecules of the original homeopathic agent whatsoever.

Does this answer your question of where does the "original solution go?"

 

[Corsair09]

Are you so sure seeing as without it modern medicine wouldnt have half its well known brands in exsistence. Or are you trashing modern medicine too? If not then you are talking rubbish.

Oh sure, modern pharmacology has its "root" in herbalism, I suppose, just as modern astronomy could be said to have roots in astrology. Both are just about as relevant today as well. What the heck.. Keep chanting over your crystals, and drinking your distilled water, if that makes you happy. As for the language, sorry about that, but my tolerance for foolish ideas is wearing thin

 

[xouper]

If you add just one molecule of a homeopathic agent to 1 ounce of water, then the dilution will be about 24X (or 12C).

By way of comparison, the water at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas was tested in January 2002 to contain .001 ppb of arsenic^*, which means that they found one molecule of arsenic for every 10¹² molecules of water. In other words, in each ounce of their water, there are about <nobr>1,000,000,000,000</nobr> molecules of arsenic.

Using the homeopathic notation for dilutions, the water at Fort Leavenworth has an arsenic dilution of 12X (or 6C). I wonder what a homeopathic drug using arsenic as its agent is supposed to cure you of.


^*Federal EPA standards for safe drinking water allow 10,000 times more arsenic than this.

 

[Guest]

Oh sure, modern pharmacology has its "root" in herbalism, I suppose, just as modern astronomy could be said to have roots in astrology. Both are just about as relevant today as well. What the heck.. Keep chanting over your crystals, and drinking your distilled water, if that makes you happy. As for the language, sorry about that, but my tolerance for foolish ideas is wearing thin

Ok oh so jump straight into the fire presumptious one please point to where I said I USED it or crystal healing?????? I SAID OH HARD OF READING ONE I KNOW OF THOSE PRACTISES WHAT I DO, DO IS COLLECT TOXIC PLANTS and LEARN ABOUT THEM, Deadlier the better spiky ouchy oh yes, evil smelling heaven.

So dont ever tell me to go do something when for one you dont know me and for 2 you are the fool here for jumping to conclusions wrong on what I do and dont do.

NEXT TIME ASK



Language apology accepted thanks.

No suppose about it without the herbalist records on use of Yew , Taxol would never have got off the ground which is a new drug, along with this little lot Digatalis, Aniseed, chamomile, Garlic, Peppermint, Fennel, Lavender, Castor Oil, Glonoine, Hypericum, Echinacea, Coffea, for the men Cantharis Vesicatoria

me showing my plant knowledge

 

[Guest]

By way of comparison, the water at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas was tested in January 2002 to contain .001 ppb of arsenic^*, which means that they found one molecule of arsenic for every 10¹² molecules of water. In other words, in each ounce of their water, there are about <nobr>1,000,000,000,000</nobr> molecules of arsenic.

Using the homeopathic notation for dilutions, the water at Fort Leavenworth has an arsenic dilution of 12X (or 6C). I wonder what a homeopathic drug using arsenic as its agent is supposed to cure you of.


^*Federal EPA standards for safe drinking water allow 10,000 times more arsenic than this.

boils, shingles, gangrene, food poisioning, headache, quite alot of uses(DONT TRY ITS LETHAL get proper medical advice first,)

me showing my love of deadly things

 

[Guest]

Well, from the sounds of things, it looks like your pharmacist screwed up. Or your doctor. Unfortunately it happens. 99.9% of people will be perscribed the correct medicine... the 0.1% may get misdiganosed, or get medicine that they aren't supposed to take... much of medicine is about risk management.

And its unfortunate that you only got 10 minutes with your doc. However, I would rather spend 10 minutes with a doc that I knew could probably help me, than someone who is going to suggest a remedy which I know hasn't been proven. This is one of the big problems that modern medicine has. Far too many people want to spend time with their doctor... and when the doctor doesn't have enough time, they go to someone who will (like a Homeopath, or chiropractor), who may not have any real ability to help cure them, but because they spend time with the patient, the patient thinks they are doing a good job. (For example, see this thread: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10526 )

Yes I know and agree. Over here its like that in some parts better some not so and you dont get a choice unelss you go private or move to a better doctors surgery. Who wouldnt go to somebody who sit and listen?

me

 

[Guest]

I'd just like to digress for a moment, R-S. We've touched a little on herbalism. Herbalism is the art of figuring out what plants do what for your benefit. We'll discount for the moment the "Doctrine of Signatures", that told us that God made plants in a particular shape in order to indicate what part of the body they'd heal. Let's look at the classic case of Aspirin.

We all know that the basis of aspirin can be found in willow bark. So you have a toothache: you peel off a bit of bark and chew away, and your toothache feels better. At this point, herbalism stops, happy with the result.

But some people aren't happy with it. Sometimes it doesn't work very well; sometimes it gives you bad stomach pains; often you end up with some sort of poorly tummy anyway if you use it often. And some of those people tried to work out why.

The general poorly tummy problem is, perhaps, because of the cellulose in the bark. Sometimes it doesn't work very well, perhaps because the dose of whatever-it-is in the bark is naturally lower - a bad summer? Sometimes it gives you very bad stomach pains because the dose of whatever-it-is is too high, and that causes problems.

What would be ideal would be to find out what is in the bark that helps the toothache, and isolate it so we can control the dose easily. Then we can work out what the right dose is for most people, and make it easy for them to get that right dose.

Doesn't that sound better than chewing a bit of bark?

For a large part, modern pharmaceuticals follow this model. Right now there are people in the rainforests analysing new plants, and people here analysing old plants.

Herbalism is just an amateur version of that, wouldn't you say?

Ameatuerist..Nope it was started before the pharmaceuticals took over(MONEY ORINENTATED) Herbalsim goes back a long way in time.

Chew a bark yes its toxic but then so is the potato that can kill, pepers kill a cell of your brain when you eat them because they are toxic. As with anything you have to build up an immunity, and get a correct diagnoisis.

Herbalism we can chat about that I like herabalism.


corsair yes I use some herbs like in cooking before you jump into my mouth again

me showing also my love of toxic plants

 

[xouper]

Using the homeopathic notation for dilutions, the water at Fort Leavenworth has an arsenic dilution of 12X (or 6C). I wonder what a homeopathic drug using arsenic as its agent is supposed to cure you of.

boils, shingles, gangrene, food poisioning, headache, quite alot of uses(DONT TRY ITS LETHAL get proper medical advice first,)

What do you mean it's lethal? The people at Fort Leavenworth are drinking tap water that's a 12X dilution of arsenic and they aren't getting any medical advice first. If 12X of arsenic is supposed to cure boils, shingles, gangrene, food poisioning, headache, and other things, then no one at Fort Leavenworth who drinks the water should ever get any of those things.

 

[richardm]

Ameatuerist..Nope it was started before the pharmaceuticals took over(MONEY ORINENTATED) Herbalsim goes back a long way in time.

Sure it does, but is there anything intrinsically wrong with working out what it is about a herb that does the trick, and separating that good part from all the other parts that you don't need? Fundamentally, this is how many drugs are produced to this day, so to say that herbalism has an edge on modern drugs is simply to accept that impurity in medicine is a benefit.

Chew a bark yes its toxic but then so is the potatoe that can kill, pepers kill a cell of your brain when you eat them becuses they are toxic. As with anything you have to build up an immunity, and get a correct diagnoisis.

Potatoes kill? I know that, like tomatoes, they were treated with great suspicion for many years; are they not both related to Deadly Nightshade? But on the other hand, has anyone ever been poisoned by a potato?

Herbalism we can chat about that I like herabalism.

Maybe it should be a new thread - we're drifting off topic here.

 

[Flatworm]

Produce a fever to kill a fever.
example pervuvian bark aka cinchona bark(quinine) produces same efect as malaria, if yu have malaria and take this(AND FOR GODS SAKE DONT DO IT WITHOUT SEEKING MEDICAL ADVICE FIRST) it will like the malaria "similars"

Quinine produces cycles of fever and chills? I'm sorry, but it doesn't work because of some mystical similarity in symptoms, but because it's quite simply toxic to Plasmodium, the organism responsible for malaria.

orthodox medicine kill the sympton not cure it, by blocking nerve signals."opposite"

Modern medicine has many tools at its disposal. Many do in fact cure the root cause, rather than blocking the symptom (antibiotics come to mind). Others simply alleviate symptoms, but regardless of their effect it is remarkably ignorant to claim all modern pharmaceuticals work by blocking nerve signals.

 

[Guest]

What do you mean it's lethal? The people at Fort Leavenworth are drinking tap water that's a 12X dilution of arsenic and they aren't getting any medical advice first. If 12X of arsenic is supposed to cure boils, shingles, gangrene, food poisioning, headache, and other things, then no one at Fort Leavenworth who drinks the water should ever get any of those things.

Of course it is so dont try taking the stuff I mean
why on earth are they drinking it? more so why is in the water? Theres me thinking the UK water was vile

me glad not living over the pond drinking arsenic water.

 

[Guest]

Sure it does, but is there anything intrinsically wrong with working out what it is about a herb that does the trick, and separating that good part from all the other parts that you don't need? Fundamentally, this is how many drugs are produced to this day, so to say that herbalism has an edge on modern drugs is simply to accept that impurity in medicine is a benefit.



Potatoes kill? I know that, like tomatoes, they were treated with great suspicion for many years; are they not both related to Deadly Nightshade? But on the other hand, has anyone ever been poisoned by a potato?



Maybe it should be a new thread - we're drifting off topic here.

Go do another topic on herbaslism then RM,

Yes a tribe in africa were given some potatoes and they died and there have been reports of potato poisioning here as well over the years. It was in the news or tomorrows world one of them.

me remembering a tv prog or news item on the subject.

 

[Ipecac]

Of course it is so dont try taking the stuff I mean
why on earth are they drinking it? more so why is i in the water? Theres me thinking the UK water was vile

Perhaps because it's impossible to filter public water supplies to remove every single contaminant. The goal is to filter the water enough so that the contaminants are harmless. So, the arsenic in the public water is non-toxic, and yet still more plentiful than in the standard homeopathic "remedy".

The question still remains, why aren't people in Fort Leavenworth completely free of the conditions you stated that Arsenic supposedly cures?

 

[Guest]

Quinine produces cycles of fever and chills? I'm sorry, but it doesn't work because of some mystical similarity in symptoms, but because it's quite simply toxic to Plasmodium, the organism responsible for malaria.



Modern medicine has many tools at its disposal. Many do in fact cure the root cause, rather than blocking the symptom (antibiotics come to mind). Others simply alleviate symptoms, but regardless of their effect it is remarkably ignorant to claim all modern pharmaceuticals work by blocking nerve signals.

That was an example I knew of,
LET ME RUN THIS BY AGAIN... HOMEOPATHY PRINCIPLES TREAT LIKE WITH LIKE(SIMILARS) that is how it is supposed to work,

me again quoting the homeopathic principles available on all good web sites.

 

[Guest]

Perhaps because it's impossible to filter public water supplies to remove every single contaminant. The goal is to filter the water enough so that the contaminants are harmless. So, the arsenic in the public water is non-toxic, and yet still more plentiful than in the standard homeopathic "remedy".

The question still remains, why aren't people in Fort Leavenworth completely free of the conditions you stated that Arsenic supposedly cures?

How do i know what Fort leavenworth has, i'm this side of the pond not yours

I said RM you know that round round feeling you said I getting dizzy lmao. ion respnce that arsenic is supposed to cure the list I didnt say it did or how much is needed. I looked it up and there you go the answer.

round round flower goes round
I dont need a man to drive me crazy
this site does it easy
round round flower round round.

me in a spin

 

[xouper]

Of course it is so dont try taking the stuff I mean
why on earth are they drinking it? more so why is i in the water? Theres me thinking the UK water was vile

Yes, arsenic is poisonous, but a 12X dilution of arsenic is not. The U.S. government considers regular consumption of 7X dilution of arsenic to be within their guidelines for safe drinking water. Meaning the water at Fort Leavenworth is 10,000 times safer than the federal limit. If you had clicked the links I gave, you would know this. And you would also know where the arsenic came from in the Fort Leavenworth tap water.


Edited to correct: I should have typed 8X not, 7X. Sorry if I confused anyone. 10,000 has only 4 zeros, not 5.

 

[Flatworm]

Of course it is so dont try taking the stuff I mean
why on earth are they drinking it? more so why is i in the water? Theres me thinking the UK water was vile

I don't think you're quite grasping the level of dilution here. I would drink water with one part in 10^12 arsenic in it any day.

Consider Hydrofluoric acid, one of the most powerful acids known. Concentrated to the point of saturation, it can be used to etch glass. However, at 10^-12 M concentration, the surrounding water contributes 100,000 times more hydronium ions than the HF. The pH of a completely pure 10^-12 M HydroFluoric acid solution would be 6.999996 . You could drink this every day of your life without harmful effects.