Should Homeopathy be illegal?

Soubrette said:
Just out of interest and knowing nothing about homeopathy...

How are these compounds diluted? Is there a set procedure or does someone buy the dilute stuff and just dilute it further? or what?

Sou

As far as I know, one drop of the original solution is added to an amount of water so that the mixture is 1:100. This mixture is then violently shaken, apparently the violent shaking is the 'special' bit. Then a drop of this mixed solution is added to 99 drops of pur water, making a dilution of 1:10,000. This is then repeated, with the dilution ratio being increased by a factor of 100 each time. Each dilution stage is known as 1c. So 6c is the said process carried out through 6 stages. :)
 
Dub said:


As far as I know, one drop of the original solution is added to an amount of water so that the mixture is 1:100. This mixture is then violently shaken, apparently the violent shaking is the 'special' bit. Then a drop of this mixed solution is added to 99 drops of pur water, making a dilution of 1:10,000. This is then repeated, with the dilution ratio being increased by a factor of 100 each time. Each dilution stage is known as 1c. So 6c is the said process carried out through 6 stages. :)

Do they throw the rest of the solution away? After using one drop per 99 drops of water?

Thanks Dub:)

Sou
 
I dont know, but i'd assume so. Sounds very waseful to me if they do. Although, they do sell different dilution levels, i.e. from about 6c upto 30c. So perhaps they just sell the lower 'c' solutions. Bizzarley it is claimed the more dilute soultions are the most effective. :)
 
Actually thinking on it some more they'd probably use it to make more dilute solutions:)

So some solutions must have an amount of the original solution in albeit miniscule - after all it can't disappear - or homeopathics could apply for the James Randi prize, just not for the healing properties;)

So a tiny proportion might have a molecule or two in compared to the rest with none in?

Is my thinking logical on this?

Sou
 
Soubrette said:
Actually thinking on it some more they'd probably use it to make more dilute solutions:)

So some solutions must have an amount of the original solution in albeit miniscule - after all it can't disappear - or homeopathics could apply for the James Randi prize, just not for the healing properties;)

So a tiny proportion might have a molecule or two in compared to the rest with none in?

Is my thinking logical on this?

Sou

Homeopathy was put to the JREF challenge and failed. Most homeopathic 'remedies' do not infact contain any of the original solution. As confirmed by big machines operated by men in white coats with beards. :D There's not even enough water in the world for one drop of a solution to achieve the dilution of most homeopathic remedies. Infact, they even come alot more diluted than that. I think anything above 16c is more dilute than one drop in all the worlds water and you can buy 30c products!!!! :)
 
Dub said:


Homeopathy was put to the JREF challenge and failed. Most homeopathic 'remedies' do not infact contain any of the original solution. As confirmed by big machines operated by men in white coats with beards. :D There's not even enough water in the world for one drop of a solution to achieve the dilution of most homeopathic remedies. Infact, they even come alot more diluted than that. I think anything above 16c is more dilute than one drop in all the worlds water and you can buy 30c products!!!! :)

So where does it go? I mean what happens to the original solution - it can't disappear can it? Assuming that they don't throw any of it away?

I'm not interested in the efficacy of it - just where the original solution actually goes :)

And I'll have you know that women with beards can operate machinery too ;)

Sou
 
I assume that as it becomes more diluted each stage, 'c' contains less and less of the original solution until finally there is none of the original solution left. The molecules of the original solution will be left in the earllier stages of the process.
 
Dub said:
I assume that as it becomes more diluted each stage, 'c' contains less and less of the original solution until finally there is none of the original solution left. The molecules of the original solution will be left in the earllier stages of the process.

Um...are you saying it spontaneously disappears? Hang on, hang on, or are you saying that at some point there isn't enough water in the world to dilute these solutions so they have to start throwing out these mixtures. Thus the actual original molecules disappear down the drain somewhere?

If it's the latter - I think I get it now:)

Sou
 
Soubrette said:


Um...are you saying it spontaneously disappears? Hang on, hang on, or are you saying that at some point there isn't enough water in the world to dilute these solutions so they have to start throwing out these mixtures. Thus the actual original molecules disappear down the drain somewhere?

If it's the latter - I think I get it now:)

Sou

Yeh the latter. :) Either down the drain or they sell the weaker soultions, a very few of which, probably anything below about 10c, will contain a extremely minute amount of the original solution.
 
Dub said:


Yeh the latter. :) Either down the drain or they sell the weaker soultions, a very few of which, probably anything below about 10c, will contain a extremely minute amount of the original solution.

Thankfully even I get there in the end ;)

Thank you for your patience:)

Sou
 
Soubrette said:


Thankfully even I get there in the end ;)

Thank you for your patience:)

Sou

Instead of making fancy dilutions and using special shaking protocals, I'd just run down to the store and buy a gallon of distilled water, put water into small fancy bottles, and label it homeopathic cure-all. That is much cheaper and the end product is the same (pure water).
 
radiating-sunflower said:

You going to including herbalism, colour therapy, reiki, crystal healing, aromatherapy, etc too?

Absolutley. Utter bollocks, the lot of it.
 
Soubrette said:


Um...are you saying it spontaneously disappears? Hang on, hang on, or are you saying that at some point there isn't enough water in the world to dilute these solutions so they have to start throwing out these mixtures. Thus the actual original molecules disappear down the drain somewhere?

If it's the latter - I think I get it now:)

Sou

I like to look at it like this. On the USA side of the Atlantic, I drop one drop of a special emultion of sulfur in the water. On your side of the Atlantic, you test the water.

Surprise! You don't detect the special sulphur.

We know it's in there. We know that drop of sulphur is in that body of water. However, it is so diluted - it is not detectable.
 
RichardR said:
Well, I’m listening but you don’t appear to have answered either of those questions.

Excuse me but I don’t think that I have commented on your grammar or anything else.

I would just like to know if you have anything to back up your claims, which were:

  1. ”you treat same with same that cures the whole “
  2. ”Half of all illnesses around are caused by the side effects of modern medicines”[/list=1]

    Can you answer these or not? Thanks.


  1. No I didnt mean you it was a general arghhhhhhhhhh :mad:



    Treat like with like. Similars is the term. I can only back it up with what I know hard concrete scientific evidence as in clinical trial, probably not, alI can back it up with is what I know on how it works and what i know about homeopathy, if that is not good enough then it ends.

    Angalgesics (example)kill pain by blocking that particular nerve function. It doesnt cure it.
    Homeopathy does by treating the sympton with itself(basically) making the body heal, it doesnt mask or hide symptons. Like with like.(see above for treating malaria with Cinchona Bark)

    Half of all illnesses around are caused side effects of modern medicines. YES that has been well documented on already, Vallium, Prozac, Celebrex/Voix etc There side effects cause more illnesess in that person to develop not all patients will but there are some that do.(again see above for the piece I put, it is a real person that went through it and not me)

    http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Prescription/Prescription.html
    http://www.benzodiazepine.org/
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1024617.stm
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/abpord.htm
    http://www.solpadeinehelp.org.uk/
    http://www.grieved.fsnet.co.uk/

    Analgesics

    Analgesics are substances that provides relief from pain. Mild analgesics, such as the many brand-named preparations of aspirin or paracetemol, are relatively harmless. Analgesic drugs of abuse are far stronger than this and are all powerful pain killers. Some are refined from an extract obtained from opium poppies (Papaver somniferum) and are classed as "opiates" and some are produced by chemical synthesis.
    Opiates include Opium itself, which is the resin obtained from the seed pod of the opium poppy, along with Morphine, Heroin and Codeine. These can all be produced from raw opium by fairly simple chemical processing.

    Synthetic analgesics are manufactured as powders, tablets or liquids. They include Methadone (usually as a syrup), Physeptone (a methadone tablet), Pethidine, Diconal and Palfium.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Which analgesics are abused?
    Analgesics - particularly opiates - have a high potential for abuse. Heroin is the most widely abused opiate analgesic but morphine, paregoric (which contains opium) and cough syrups that contain codeine are also abused.
    Many synthetic opiates are abused, usually by heroin users as an alternative to that drug. Methadone - prescribed as an alternative to heroin - has been much abused in recent years and is responsible for many deaths in the UK.
    Diconal, Physeptone, Pethidine and palfium tablets are usually crushed up and injected by drug abusers. These tablets contain solids such as chalk, which can block veins when injected and lead to gangrene or a stroke.

    What do they look like?
    Opium is a dark brown slightly sticky resin with the consistency of stiff putty and is usually smoked or eaten. Heroin is a white or brownish powder which is usually dissolved in water and then injected, although it can be smoked. Most street preparations of heroin are diluted, or 'cut' with other substances such as lactose or quinine.
    Other analgesics, including all synthetics, come in a variety of forms including capsules, tablets, syrups, solutions and suppositories.

    What are the effects of analgesics?
    Opiate and synthetic analgesics tend to relax the user. When they are injected, the user feels an immediate 'rush' - that is a strong wave of pleasurable relaxation and relief from anxiety. Unpleasant effects may include restlessness, nausea, and vomiting. The user may go 'on the nod' - going back and forth from feeling alert to drowsy. With large doses, the user cannot be awakened and the skin becomes cold, moist and bluish in color. Breathing slows down and death may occur.
    Where analgesics are taken as a syrup, tablets or capsules etc. the effects are similar to that after injection but are milder and without any immediate 'rush'.

    I can get this rush from just one pain killer tablet I immediatly get and crave more and I cant stop, so means I cant take any pain killers or similar drugs again. this is the side effect for OTC abuse and addicts.

    Does that explain it better?

    me a search engine, hardrive of unknown personal research for own personal interest
 
Dragon said:
r-s,

I'm happy to to move on and "focus on the whole" as you put it.
[shinguards]Reserving the right to point out any particular errors of yours. :D [/shinguards]

I think we can probably agree on this -
Medicines vary in their efficacy and potential for harm. The medical profession does not have a monopoly on wisdom nor do doctors always understand exactly what they are doing.

From your posts on this thread your general position seems to be "Modern Medicines Bad, Natural Medicines Good"
Please correct me if I have misread you.

My position is that all medicines need to come up to scratch and that means proper testing whatever the original source.

Proper testing is, ideally -
  • Double blind
  • Peer reviewed
  • Replicated (e.g. by other labs/teams)

I have yet to see these criteria fully applied to homeopathic remedies. Therefore no-one should be allowed to make false claims as to their efficacy. They should not be marketed as medicines.
LMAO shinsguards:D

Yes I agree.

No dragon modern medincines are not god I mean ;), medicine in general is both good and bad in all forms. I am not saying modern is bad there are some aspects of it that are ok.

Yes and no, lab testing clinical documented trials to validify saftey yes, but............. open to abuse from pharmesutical(sp?) giants not wishing to have alternative natural drug on offer losing them revenue.


It wont work doctors paid to prescibe the Big named brands will do so regardless if the alternative is safer more reliable.

False claims yes if a drug regardless of whose it is has nothing in it I mean nothing and it has a vast majority of trialers doesnt work then yes remove it, if it works then leave it alone.

Me
 
Addiction
Prescription drugs are just as dangerous as street drugs if taken in the wrong way. Certain medications or drugs taken in certain ways can be even more dangerous. Alcohol in combination with prescription drugs is extremely dangerous and often fatal. Some people begin abusing prescription drugs on purpose for the relaxed or euphoric feelings they provide. However, it is more common for people to become addicted after a period of legitimate use.

Barbiturates and benzodiazepines are separated into long-acting and short acting groups. Short-acting means the drug produces effects sooner and that the effects wear off sooner. The shorter-acting drugs are more quickly addictive than the longer-acting drugs. Withdrawal from short-acting tranquilizers can be more severe than withdrawal from the longer-acting ones.
After a short period (sometimes as short as a week or two) of using the drug exactly as directed, tolerance can develop. The brain will become adjusted to a certain level of the drug in it and will adjust its functioning to that level. More of the drug will need to be taken to achieve the same effects.
Some of the effects of tranquilizer abuse include slurred speech, constricted pupils, slowed breathing rate and possibly death

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Painkiller drug addiction snares 20,000 Britons
Special report: drugs in Britain
Amelia Hill
Sunday September 17, 2000
The Observer
More than 20,000 people in Britain are addicted to drugs available without prescription, such as painkillers and cough mixtures, according to the first national survey into the problem.
Young women aged 25 to 35 are most likely to suffer over-the-counter (OTC) addiction: 52 per cent of those who admitted addiction were housewives, 27 per cent were one-parent mothers and a further 21 per cent were professionals who often took up to 75 tablets a day over a four- to five-year period.
One-third of the men who admitted dependency were young professionals aged 28 to 35, while 30 per cent were manual workers and 19 per cent were retail staff in the same age range.
Mel Smith, the actor and producer, admitted recently that he nearly died after a seven-year addiction to Nurofen Plus, which left him exhausted, depressed and with two leaking stomach ulcers. At the height of his dependency to the painkiller, taken originally to ease gout, Smith was taking nearly 10 times the maximum dose advised.
'It's frightening how easily I became hooked on a drug freely sold over the counter,' he said. 'I swallowed the pills like Smarties. Swallowing 50 tablets in one day was tantamount to committing suicide: I'm very lucky to be alive.'
The research, to be published in a book next year, was carried out by Over-Count, a self-help group with more than 9,000 people on its books. It was set up by David Grieve, a former policeman who was given 12 months to live in 1992 when his 17-year addiction to the cough mixture Phensydyl landed him in intensive care.
'I had reached the point where I was drinking 25 to 30 bottles of the stuff every day,' he said. 'I had run up £18,000 in debt, had lost my job and spent my weeks travelling around the country trying to find chemists who would still serve me. I sold my son's Christmas presents so I could buy two bottles.'
Grieve began his research in 1997 and was amazed at the extent of the problem. 'Male addicts regularly travel up to 135 miles to buy enough medicine to fuel their addiction,' he said. 'It's an addiction that can hit those who wouldn't consider taking anything harder, which means it affects a wide and as yet completely undefined spectrum of society.'
More than 70 per cent of Over-Count's members are women, most addicted to codeine-based painkillers in tablet form. The men are mainly addicted to codeine-based cough and cold mixtures.
Long misuse of codeine, a highly addictive opiate in the same family as heroin and morphine, will have a depressant effect on the central nervous system and can cause pancreatitis, dependency and respiratory depression.
Grieve questioned 25 pharmacists who listed 21 products, most codeine-based, which they were allowed to sell without prescription, but suspected were frequently abused by customers.
A psychiatrist at an NHS Substance Misuse Clinic in Scotland said the numbers of referrals for over-the-counter drug addictions to his clinic had increased by more than 50 per cent in five years.
'We need to address this problem before events overtake us,' he said. 'More and more prescription drugs are being down rated to OTC availability, and I fear the numbers of patients with an OTC addiction will increase correspondingly unless something is done and unless that happens soon.'
Observer. 17th October 2000

note the Observer added source identified
 
Corsair09 said:


Absolutley. Utter bollocks, the lot of it.

Herbalism how you so eloquently put it b*******( no need to use that language) really?

Are you so sure seeing as without it modern medicine wouldnt have half its well known brands in exsistence. Or are you trashing modern medicine too? If not then you are talking rubbish.

me
 
dmarker said:
What does "provoke healing" mean?




Force or kick start the healing process etc, make the bodies immune system kick in and deal with the sympton.

me
 

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