Should Guns be Allowed on Planes?

[shanek]

We dont need charts and stats. Just use a little common sense.

Common sense once told us to burn witches. Common sense once told us that the Earth was the center of the universe. Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without.

 

[shanek]

Or it may just prove to yourself you are wrong.

If I had thought that, I hardly would have taken two hours to collect the data from the site in the first place, now, would I?

 

[Tony]

Libertarianism has never been about reality.

Just because you are ignorant of what libertarianism is doesnt mean it isnt realistic.

 

[Luke T.]

Except that it doesn't. Prior to the first gun restrictions in 1968, which is the period I've been talking about, there were virtually no hijackings.

And what were those restrictions you are talking about? You are making a fine argument for why restrictions aren't as good as an all-out ban.

Not according to the site I referenced to you. Why don't you go read it?

I did. Several times. And guess what? Did you notice all those "Cuba" locations in your 1969 link? Something like 22 or more. Guess where the origin was?

Take a look at 1968. Same thing.

Your link only verifies what I have been saying.

Now have you looked at the three sources I provided in this topic? The dead flight attendant, the dramatic drops in hijackings after the gun ban?

 

[Luke T.]

Okay, I'm going to ignore all of the illogic and desperate tactics of the gun control people here and annoy them with more facts.

I've just compiled a graph, based on data from the Aviation Safety Network's Aviation Safety Database (http://aviation-safety.net/) for the number of hijackings of US planes per year. To see what effect the gun control legislation had, to keep it equal, I graphed ten years before any gun legislation (1958-1968), when anyone could carry a gun, the period of gun legislation (1968-1973), and the ten years after the total gun ban (1973-1983). I think the graph tells a very clear picture. The number of hijackings of US planes most definitely went up in the 10 years after the gun ban, compared to the 10 years before any gun restrictions at all.

Any and all explanations are welcome, but evasion, ignoring the data, and the other forms of table-turning and goalpost-moving exhibited in these threads is not. Deal with the facts, people. They are what they are.

I just wanted to preserve this nonsense.

 

[shanek]

And what were those restrictions you are talking about?

1968 was the year Congress made carrying a concealed weapon on an airplane a felony. That's the main one.

And if you can show to me that it is worth my while to take the approx. 12 hours I estimate it will to look at every single hijacking on that site individually to make the new graph, meaning that you will NOT respond with the immaturity and avoiding the facts that you did the last time, then I will do so.

In the meantime, I'm going to see if I can find a source that has the data collated to match what we need here so maybe I won't have to go through all of that.

 

[Jocko]

Strawman again. No one is claiming this. One thing the gun control people on this thread are clearly demonstrating is their complete unwillingness to debate honestly.

If it helps any, I'm anti-gun control and I still think you're nuts for pushing for this kind of extreme insanity. Don't try to lay blame for your nutty premise on the anti-gun crowd; in fact, ludicrous proposals like yours are what give them strength. Can't you see that?

 

[Luke T.]

Here is the actual data page from shanek's link for hijackings for 1969.

02-JAN-1969 Douglas DC-6 Olympic Airways 0 Egypt H2
02-JAN-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
07-JAN-1969 Douglas DC-4 Avianca 0 Cuba H2
09-JAN-1969 Boeing 727 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
11-JAN-1969 Boeing 727 United Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
11-JAN-1969 Convair CV-990 APSA 0 Cuba H2
13-JAN-1969 Convair CV-880 Delta Air Lines 0 H2
19-JAN-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
19-JAN-1969 Lockheed L-188 Equatoriana 0 H2
24-JAN-1969 Boeing 727 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
28-JAN-1969 DC-8 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
28-JAN-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
31-JAN-1969 DC-8 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
03-FEB-1969 Boeing 727 National Airlines 0 H2
03-FEB-1969 Boeing 727 Eastern Air Lines 0 H2
05-FEB-1969 Douglas DC-4 SAM Colombia 0 Cuba H2
08-FEB-1969 Douglas DC-6 ? 0 H2
10-FEB-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
11-FEB-1969 DC-9 LAV 0 Cuba H2
25-FEB-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
05-MAR-1969 Boeing 727 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
11-MAR-1969 Douglas DC-4 SAM Colombia 1 Colombia H2
15-MAR-1969 Douglas DC-6 Aerovias Condor 0 Cuba H2
17-MAR-1969 DC-9 Delta Air Lines 0 H2
17-MAR-1969 Boeing 727 Faucett 0 Cuba H2
19-MAR-1969 Convair CV-880 Delta Air Lines 0 H2
25-MAR-1969 DC-8 Delta Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
11-APR-1969 Douglas DC-6 ? 0 Cuba H2
13-APR-1969 Boeing 727 Pan Am 0 Cuba H2
14-APR-1969 Douglas DC-4 SAM Colombia 0 Cuba H2
05-MAY-1969 Boeing 727 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
20-MAY-1969 Boeing 737 Avianca 0 Cuba H2
26-MAY-1969 Boeing 727 Northeast Airlines 0 Cuba H2
30-MAY-1969 Convair CV-600 Texas International 0 H2
04-JUN-1969 Douglas DC-3 DTA 0 D.R. Congo H2
17-JUN-1969 Boeing 707 TWA 0 Cuba H2
20-JUN-1969 Douglas DC-3 la Urraca 0 Cuba H2
22-JUN-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
25-JUN-1969 DC-8 United Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
28-JUN-1969 Boeing 727 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
03-JUL-1969 Douglas DC-3 SAETA 0 H2
10-JUL-1969 Douglas DC-4 Avianca 0 Colombia H2
10-JUL-1969 Douglas DC-4 SAM Colombia 0 Colombia H2
26-JUL-1969 DC-9 Continental Airlines 0 Cuba H2
26-JUL-1969 Douglas DC-6 Mexicana 0 Cuba H2
29-JUL-1969 unknown ? 0 H2
31-JUL-1969 Boeing 727 TWA 0 Cuba H2
04-AUG-1969 Douglas DC-4 Avianca 0 Cuba H2
05-AUG-1969 DC-9 Eastern Air Lines 0 H2
11-AUG-1969 Douglas DC-3 Ethiopian Airlines 0 Sudan H2
14-AUG-1969 Boeing 727 Northeast Airlines 0 Cuba H2
16-AUG-1969 Douglas DC-3 SX-BBF? Olympic Airways 0 Albania H2
18-AUG-1969 Antonov 24 Misrair 0 Egypt H2
23-AUG-1969 HS-748 Avianca 0 Cuba H2
29-AUG-1969 Boeing 727 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
29-AUG-1969 Boeing 707 TWA 0 Syria H2
06-SEP-1969 Douglas DC-3 TAME Ecuador 0 H2
06-SEP-1969 Douglas DC-3 TAME Ecuador 1 Colombia H2
07-SEP-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 Cuba H2
10-SEP-1969 DC-8 Eastern Air Lines 0 H2
13-SEP-1969 Douglas DC-3 SAHSA 0 El Salvador H2
13-SEP-1969 Douglas DC-6 Ethiopian Airlines 1 Yemen H2
16-SEP-1969 Vickers Viscount THY 0 Bulgaria H2
24-SEP-1969 Boeing 727 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
08-OCT-1969 Boeing 707 Aerolineas Argentinas 0 Cuba H2
08-OCT-1969 Caravelle Cruzeiro 0 Cuba H2
09-OCT-1969 DC-8 National Airlines 0 Cuba H2
19-OCT-1969 Ilyushin 18 LOT 0 Germany H2
21-OCT-1969 Boeing 720 Pan Am 0 Cuba H2
28-OCT-1969 unknown ? 0 H2
31-OCT-1969 Boeing 707 TWA 0 Italy H2
04-NOV-1969 BAC One-Eleven AN-... Lanica 0 Cayman Isl. H2
04-NOV-1969 Boeing 707 Varig 0 Cuba H2
08-NOV-1969 BAC One-Eleven LV-... Austral Lineas Aéreas 0 Uruguay H2
10-NOV-1969 DC-9 Delta Air Lines 0 USA H2
12-NOV-1969 NAMC YS-11 Cruzeiro 0 H2
12-NOV-1969 Caravelle LAN Chile 0 Chile H2
13-NOV-1969 Douglas DC-4 Avianca 0 Cuba H2
20-NOV-1969 Antonov 24 LOT 0 Austria H2
29-NOV-1969 Boeing 707 Varig 0 Cuba H2
02-DEC-1969 Boeing 707 TWA 0 Cuba H2
11-DEC-1969 NAMC YS-11 HL5208 KAL 0 North Korea H1
11-DEC-1969 NAMC YS-11 KAL 0 North Korea H2
12-DEC-1969 Boeing 707 Ethiopian Airlines 2 H2
19-DEC-1969 Boeing 727 LAN Chile 0 Cuba H2
23-DEC-1969 Curtiss C-46 LACSA 0 Cuba H2
26-DEC-1969 Boeing 727 United Air Lines 0 Cuba H2

You may notice that USA appears only once. By some fantastic coincidence shanek's graph says there was ONLY ONE U.S. hijacking for 1969. Of course, anyone who was alive back then will know that is bald-faced, blatant lying. It is sheer madness.

Now how many times does Cuba appear on this list? Hmmmm.

49 TIMES!!!!!!!

That's because this list is a list of the destination of the hijackers. Not their point of origin.

And what airlines were involved? TWA, Continental, Delta, Eastern, and a handful of foreign airlines. edited to add United Airlines.

Get real, shanek.

 

[CFLarsen]

Not according to the site I referenced to you. Why don't you go read it?

Good idea. Not good for you, though.

I checked your data. I immediately focused on the 1 hijacking in 1968 you claimed was a "US Hijacking". I found somewhat more different data than you:

In 1968, there were no less than 29 hijackings.

16 of these were with American airline companies.

15 departed from the US.

16 of the hijackings had the US as destination.

Source: Aviation Safety, hijackings, 1968

I would really, really like to know how you got to 1 hijackings "in the USA" in 1968.

Like you said, "Any and all explanations are welcome, but evasion, ignoring the data, and the other forms of table-turning and goalpost-moving exhibited in these threads is not. Deal with the facts, people. They are what they are."

(Ah, Luke was there, too....)

 

[Jocko]

Re: Re: And here's the post-game show.

I believe the hijackers stated they had bombs. I don't believe they actually had bombs. But who could tell at the time? That is one reason the passengers were compliant.

Precisely. Would you shoot a hijacker who claimed to have a bomb on board? Possibly with a deadman's switch, possibly on a timer?

If you're a passenger, would you not take them at their word?

 

[Luke T.]

1968 was the year Congress made carrying a concealed weapon on an airplane a felony. That's the main one.

And if you can show to me that it is worth my while to take the approx. 12 hours I estimate it will to look at every single hijacking on that site individually to make the new graph, meaning that you will NOT respond with the immaturity and avoiding the facts that you did the last time, then I will do so.

In the meantime, I'm going to see if I can find a source that has the data collated to match what we need here so maybe I won't have to go through all of that.

The only one avoiding facts is you, shanek. You truly believe there was only one hijacking of a U.S. domestic plane in 1968 or 1969? Do you?

That's what your graph says.

Gee. A felony to carry a gun on a plane. And that didn't keep someone from hijacking a plane, did it? Because if you are going to hijack a plane, what the hell difference does it make if you add a felony possession to your list of crimes?

Keep it up. You have almost achieved making me a "gun control advocate."

 

[Luke T.]

I guess I was right when I said no one under 30 would get the "I'm hijacking this plane to Cuba" joke....

This is starting to remind me of the White Nationalists saying there was no holocaust.

 

[Tmy]

Common sense once told us to burn witches. Common sense once told us that the Earth was the center of the universe. Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without.

HAHAHA! I believe it was the church that told us those things. They're not big on common sense. Doing without common sense is a bad thing. Common sense tells me not to step off cliffs, (well unless Im cliff diving of course! And common sense still has a problem with that.)

 

[DanishDynamite]

Will this farce never end? (I hope not, it's great entertainment. )

Luke:

Keep it up. You have almost achieved making me a "gun control advocate."

Well, it seems something good can come of this travesty afterall.

 

[shanek]

You may notice that USA appears only once. By some fantastic coincidence shanek's graph says there was ONLY ONE U.S. hijacking for 1969.

Dude, I've already acknowledged this problem. What's your malfunction?

 

[shanek]

I would really, really like to know how you got to 1 hijackings "in the USA" in 1968.

Because that's what the database search turned up. You've just "uncovered" the problem mentioned awhile ago by Lief Roar and acknowledged by me at the time.

But, I guess it's better for you people's ego's to play pile-on...sheesh, grow up! Once a guy's admitted to a problem with statistics he's submitted, what reason other than blatant ego would make you keep at him like y'all are?

 

[shanek]

Gee. A felony to carry a gun on a plane. And that didn't keep someone from hijacking a plane, did it? Because if you are going to hijack a plane, what the hell difference does it make if you add a felony possession to your list of crimes?

Funny; that sounds like the argument I was trying to make. What exactly are you trying to do here?

 

[CFLarsen]

shanek,

Do you still maintain your point, then? Despite that your data was severely flawed (and I'm being nice here)?

If you have abandoned these data, what do you base your point on, then?

 

[shanek]

Do you still maintain your point, then? Despite that your data was severely flawed (and I'm being nice here)?

If you have abandoned these data, what do you base your point on, then?

My point is "on hold," as it were, while I check things out in more detail. If anything, I think I am going to do a more detailed graph, if for no other reasont han to get y'all to shut up about it. But I really am curious. Just from my precursory looks at the details, many of the ones labelled as Cuba were domestic US flights (although many of them weren't and many of the ones labelled as USA were international flights). It does look like the period from 1968-1973 has many more hijackings than my graph calculated, but it also shows that the period before 1968 has on the whole fewer hijackings than my graph shows. And again, the period before 1968 is what I've been talking about.

I haven't really looked yet at the post-1973 numbers. It takes a really, really long time to go through this since I have to load each record individually and look at the takeoff and departure points.

One thing I have noticed, though: Many of them say the hijacker was "taken down," and some directly say he was shot and killed. It doesn't say by whom, but it does appear as if guns can be effective against hijackers.

 

[CFLarsen]

shanek,

Fine. Do your homework and get back when you are done.

Just be prepared to have your data questioned and scrutinized. You're not doing that well as it is...

One thing I have noticed, though: Many of them say the hijacker was "taken down," and some directly say he was shot and killed. It doesn't say by whom, but it does appear as if guns can be effective against hijackers.

You would have to prove in each case that the hijackers were shot by armed passengers. Not people on the ground.