Should Bert and Ernie Marry on Sesame Street?

[Pardalis]

Also if you're responding to me, I already said that it could be other characters than Bert and Ernie. SS could even introduce 2 new characters.

I disagree. If they come up with two new gay characters, it will become about them being gay. These will be the "gay characters", but if Bert and Ernie are gay, they will continue to be good old Bert and Ernie, and they will just happen to be gay.

It would be nice if one day that issue would become irrelevant. Their orientation would be as noteworthy and important as the fact that they're bald, or have orange skin.

 

[Ziggurat]

I work with children every day, I'm a puppeteer

KILL IT WITH FIRE!

Sorry, I got carried away. I've just never met someone who admitted to being a puppeteer.

 

[Pardalis]

Forgot to reply to the last part of your post:

If it were B and E, how would you propose that the show introduce their sexuality? I mean if they aren't seen getting married, then how does a childrens show like SS tell it's viewers that they have in fact done so?


This oughta be good...

I don't know, maybe just mention it casually that they are now married, or make them call themselves honey or something.

That's up to the writers to come up with stuff, that's their job.

 

[Rasmus]

I disagree. If they come up with two new gay characters, it will become about them being gay. These will be the "gay characters", but if Bert and Ernie are gay, they will continue to be good old Bert and Ernie, and they will just happen to be gay.

But they aren't.

What is there in the history of the two indicating that they are gay, let alone that they are a couple in a romantic relationship?

It would be nice if one day that issue would become irrelevant. Their orientation would be as noteworthy and important as the fact that they're bald, or have orange skin.

Has there been any mentioning of their orientation, ever?

 

[Pardalis]

But they aren't.

What is there in the history of the two indicating that they are gay, let alone that they are a couple in a romantic relationship?

It's not like people have followed the story from the beginning. It won't matter if there are inconsistencies in the continuity, because there isn't a continuity, and since most people stop watching it at about 12 and a new audience gets born every few years.

 

[Cavemonster]

KILL IT WITH FIRE!

Sorry, I got carried away. I've just never met someone who admitted to being a puppeteer.

You've probably not met many who admitted to being Nobel prize winning Physicists either. The best people are rare. I make people happy. I teach children in a way that never feels like teaching. What do you do for a living?

 

[Furcifer]

The number of things one explains to them, the number of idiosynchratic, specific and rare things is huge, concepts far more difficult than "When two people love each other very much, sometimes they get married and become a family" come up every day.

That's true I suppose. Of course it begs the question, why bother? If kids aren't going to think much about it, but parents are going to talk about it, what's the actual motivation for making any "change" to Bert and Ernie's social status?

 

[Pardalis]

That's true I suppose. Of course it begs the question, why bother? If kids aren't going to think much about it, but parents are going to talk about it, what's the actual motivation for making any "change" to Bert and Ernie's social status?

It will just make it part of everyday life. Imagine the kid gets up in the morning, eats breakfast while watching Sesame Street, sees Big Bird talk about the color Green and the letter M, Ernie annoys his husband Bert, and the kid finishes his cereal bowl and goes to school. Nothing out of the ordinary happened. It's just life as usual.

Just like Star Trek helped make it become "normal" to see black people on the bridge of a ship, or Mary Tyler Moore made it become "normal" for a woman to have a career. Today we don't even think twice about these things because they have become so banal.

 

[Furcifer]

It will just make it part of everyday life. Imagine the kid gets up in the morning, eats breakfast while watching Sesame Street, sees Big Bird talk about the color Green and the letter M, Ernie annoys his husband Bert, and the kid finishes his cereal bowl and goes to school. Nothing out of the ordinary happened. It's just life as usual.

Just like Star Trek helped make it become "normal" to see black people on the bridge of a ship, or Mary Tyler Moore made it become "normal" for a woman to have a career. Today we don't even think twice about these things because they have become so banal.

But it's not legal in the US. I'm not sure I'm comfortable using children's programming to push social issues like this. The best analogy I can think of is pot. Heck,come to think of it, it would be a little weird to see Bert and Ernie sharing a Blue.
I don't know, I guess it would be OK here in Canada only because they do show other families and other "married" couples. It's been a long time coming and it might be good to introduce these relationships to children. I have no opinion one way or the other.
In the states though, until they make up their minds and get with the times, I don't think it's appropriate.

 

[Cavemonster]

That's true I suppose. Of course it begs the question, why bother? If kids aren't going to think much about it, but parents are going to talk about it, what's the actual motivation for making any "change" to Bert and Ernie's social status?

Once again, I don't think B+E is a great vehicle, but I'll tell you why same sex couples should be on the show.

Just because children are perfectly capable of understanding an explanation, doesn't mean they're perfectly capable of understanding something without an explanation.

Throughout the years, Sesame has dedicated a lot of screen time to sketches like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqSuXFcOTHU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=798ZCrv102Q

And there's a reason for this. The family unit is the biggest part of the child's life and identity at young ages. Everything is investigated from the home base of family life, a positive emphasis on families has been a part of the programming since the early days, so has a rigorous inclusiveness. Three year olds aren't great at generalizing, so it really means something to them to see people with the same skin color, languages or family structure, to be constantly reminded that variations are very healthy and good.

Hell, there's even a sketch all about how even a nuclear family can look different in a million ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNmKu4VJ3XM

It's absolutely on message and valuable to include same sex couples in what is already a central and constant exploration of family and variation.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The obvious question is, "Are they actually gay?"

Regardless of whether some people want them to be, or see them as gay, have they ever been potrayed as actually being a couple, or are they just friends who live together. If they are second (which is my understanding), then changing the relationship to create a political message is silly.

 

[Furcifer]

It's absolutely on message and valuable to include same sex couples in what is already a central and constant exploration of family and variation.

Yah, but why marry them? Coming out is one thing, but marriage at least in the US, is another. It seems to me if kids can get the same sex marriage thing they can get the "breaking the law is OK" thing.
Bert and Ernie are icons and people aren't going to like this in the US. Kids might forget about it quickly, but parents aren't.
It would be interesting to see how it all turned out though.

I wonder how Henson would feel?

 

[Cavemonster]

Yah, but why marry them? Coming out is one thing, but marriage at least in the US, is another. It seems to me if kids can get the same sex marriage thing they can get the "breaking the law is OK" thing.
Bert and Ernie are icons and people aren't going to like this in the US. Kids might forget about it quickly, but parents aren't.
It would be interesting to see how it all turned out though.

I wonder how Henson would feel?

Where did you get the weird idea that same sex marriage was illegal?
Really? What did you misread?

Same sex marriage is absolutely legal in several US states including Iowa, Vermont and most recently, New York.

There is absolutely no breaking the law involved.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I see nothing to be gained in sexualizing puppets.

Apparently you haven't seen the right sort of porn...

 

[Furcifer]

Where did you get the weird idea that same sex marriage was illegal?
Really? What did you misread?

Same sex marriage is absolutely legal in several US states including Iowa, Vermont and most recently, New York.

There is absolutely no breaking the law involved.

I don't think 4 year olds are going to understand the subtle nuances of English language enough to understand the difference between "not legal" and "illegal" or "it's only recognized in certain states because marriage falls under civil law and not federal".
If it does happen it's going to be such a big issue people are going to have to explain "it" to their kids. "It" being the fuss people are making over it and not the actual marriage.

 

[Cavemonster]

I don't think 4 year olds are going to understand the subtle nuances of English language enough to understand the difference between "not legal" and "illegal" or "it's only recognized in certain states because marriage falls under civil law and not federal".
If it does happen it's going to be such a big issue people are going to have to explain "it" to their kids. "It" being the fuss people are making over it and not the actual marriage.

Why on earth would you need to explain the law?
"When two people love each other very much, sometimes they get married. Then they're a family."

It isn't "illegal" or "not legal".
In 1967, interracial marriage was still illegal in some parts of the country. That's two years before the launch of Sesame Street. If they had launched a couple years earlier and showed an interracial couple, would you have the same reaction?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Why on earth would you need to explain the law?
"When two people love each other very much, sometimes they get married. Then they're a family."

It isn't "illegal" or "not legal".
In 1967, interracial marriage was still illegal in some parts of the country. That's two years before the launch of Sesame Street. If they had launched a couple years earlier and showed an interracial couple, would you have the same reaction?

Got any evidence that Bert and Ernie love each other that way? A lot of people love each other as friends and that doesn't mean that they should be getting married. Where is the evidence that Bert and Ernie are anything more than super best friends?

 

[commandlinegamer]

But what will Ernie think when he discovers Bert's secret other life?

 

[Pardalis]

The obvious question is, "Are they actually gay?"

You know, they are mostly made of foam, and they're not really the ones talking.

 

[Pardalis]

If they had launched a couple years earlier and showed an interracial couple, would you have the same reaction?

Bert is yellow, and Ernie is orange, I wonder if they would be a gay interratial couple...