Shakespeare Movies

[epepke]

The banter between Mercutio and Romeo, or between Petruchio and Kate, or between Benedick and Beatrice (or I could go on and on--no surprise there) are dependent on, again, Shakespeare's "breath", and if you rewrote the scene through modern lungs, something would be lost. Something terribly important, I might add (especially if you buy Bloom's argument that our own modern ideas about personality and consciousness are shaped by Shakespeare's dialogues and soliloquys).

I see what you're saying, but the kind of recitation of Shakespeare that we usually take for granted was a product of the 19th century, the same school of acting that resulted in the early silent melodramas. So I don't see why it should dominate. From the best guesses of linguists, American Standard English pronunciation, or even a drawl like in the Ozarks, Texas and the North Country in England is more like Shakespearian pronunciation than the clipped Home Counties English.

The banter of which you speak I can see as being delivered in a New York Puerto Rican style or even a Japanese style and be closer to the spirit of the original than the 19th century style.

 

[Mercutio]

I see what you're saying, but the kind of recitation of Shakespeare that we usually take for granted was a product of the 19th century, the same school of acting that resulted in the early silent melodramas. So I don't see why it should dominate. From the best guesses of linguists, American Standard English pronunciation, or even a drawl like in the Ozarks, Texas and the North Country in England is more like Shakespearian pronunciation than the clipped Home Counties English.

The banter of which you speak I can see as being delivered in a New York Puerto Rican style or even a Japanese style and be closer to the spirit of the original than the 19th century style.

If you watch the movie "songcatcher", they make the point that the English language of Shaksper was carried to Appalachia and stayed hermetically sealed in the hollers there...I have heard Hamlet done in an Appalachian accent, and it flows beautifully. The "t' be, 'r not t' be" speech was most impressive.

I guess it is appropriate for this thread...just, moments ago, finished watching West Side Story on TCM...You'd think after how often I have seen it, or R&J, I might be immune to the ending by now. No such luck...must be something in my eye, the screen is all blurry now...

 

[epepke]

If you watch the movie "songcatcher", they make the point that the English language of Shaksper was carried to Appalachia and stayed hermetically sealed in the hollers there...I have heard Hamlet done in an Appalachian accent, and it flows beautifully. The "t' be, 'r not t' be" speech was most impressive.

I haven't seen that movie. But I am a linguist, and a cunning one at that. Appalachia isn't exactly sealed, as it was a mixture of West Country and North Country and has evolved since then. But it's still pretty close.

The reason that I suggest that the bantering could be Japanese is that I stayed in a Japanese hotel and hung out at the bar the last time I was in LA. Before that, I had seen a lot of martial arts movies. I never understood how someone could say something and then say, "Hahaha!" But the people in the bar did that when talking to each other. The "Hahaha!" I interpreted as a linguistic convention of saying, "This is just a game. It does not mean personal disrespect."

An English speaker wouldn't have the "Hahaha!" but I think it would work really well.

 

[Cleopatra]

.You'd think after how often I have seen it, or R&J, I might be immune to the ending by now. No such luck...must be something in my eye, the screen is all blurry now...

This is the magic of the art of theatrical speech, Mercutio. I experience the same phaenomenon with the greek tragedies especially with Oedipus Rex( I mention this particular play because I have studied it at the University ad nauseam). I get chills every time I see the scene in which the identity of Oedipus is revealed...

Some people say that classical plays have this effect , I believe that it's the structure of the theatrical speech that does the trick.

I saw Macbeth of Polanski and I didn't like it at all. I only liked the Witches but even those characters suffered by Polaski's sex mania.

 

[epepke]

This is the magic of the art of theatrical speech, Mercutio. I experience the same phaenomenon with the greek tragedies especially with Oedipus Rex( I mention this particular play because I have studied it at the University ad nauseam). I get chills every time I see the scene in which the identity of Oedipus is revealed...

Some people say that classical plays have this effect , I believe that it's the structure of the theatrical speech that does the trick.

Forgive me if this is a bit heretical here, but I think that the language in plays is intended for actors, that is, people with special skills to turn language into drama.

Although many of them may be fun to read, I don't think they're designed to be read. I think that they're designed to be acted and directed.

So people who have only experienced the classics or Shakespeare or Lope de Vega or Tirso de Molinas or Moliere or whomever through just reading them are missing something.

 

[Cleopatra]

Oh definetely yes! I think that I have mentioned previously that the word theatre comes from the ancient greek verb theomai ( pronounced: the'ome) that means "I watch action". So yes you are right.

The same observation might stand for the theatrical plays that are produced for the radio. I love listening a play on the radio, I believe that it's better to listen a play on the radio than watching it on TV ( although there is one exception : BBC's productions of the Ancient Greek Dramas, exclusively for TV- it's something amazing) but there is something that is missing even on the radio.

Theater must be watched on the stage.

 

[epepke]

The same observation might stand for the theatrical plays that are produced for the radio. I love listening a play on the radio, I believe that it's better to listen a play on the radio than watching it on TV ( although there is one exception : BBC's productions of the Ancient Greek Dramas, exclusively for TV- it's something amazing) but there is something that is missing even on the radio.

Radio is quite special. The radio era in the US produced some amazing voice talents, people like Doodles Weaver and Mel Blank who could do anything with their voices.

In some ways, I think the limitations on an art form are as important as the art itself. Sometimes, I think, movies and computer games suffer simply because it's so easy to do impressive things. Having some sort of frame or stage in which to do the actions is, I think, important.

 

[Cleopatra]

Radio is quite special. The radio era in the US produced some amazing voice talents, people like Doodles Weaver and Mel Blank who could do anything with their voices.

I am the grand-daughter of a radio maniac( BTW I have a radio set that dates back to WWII , still sealed by the Germans!!). I have always had access to the British Radio but I didn't have a clue about the American one. Now with the broad band connection I have started to explore this field, the time difference is a limit though. The problem is that USA is a huge country and there are thousands of radio stations. I haven't finished yet exploring the jewish stations of NYC!!!

If you can point out to me american r/s that broadcast plays on line I would appreciate it because as we all know two things worth in life : European cinema and American theater.

In some ways, I think the limitations on an art form are as important as the art itself. Sometimes, I think, movies and computer games suffer simply because it's so easy to do impressive things. Having some sort of frame or stage in which to do the actions is, I think, important.

That's a very astute observation. One could even say that it's the limitations that can turn a technique into Art. A friend who is a photographer told me once though that the absence of limitations in cinema is part of the nature of this Art. I haven't decided yet if this is nothing more than a ratioinalization or if this makes a fair point...

 

[Mercutio]

This is the magic of the art of theatrical speech, Mercutio. I experience the same phaenomenon with the greek tragedies especially with Oedipus Rex( I mention this particular play because I have studied it at the University ad nauseam). I get chills every time I see the scene in which the identity of Oedipus is revealed...

I think it is partly the speech...how could it not be...but in part, some of the things that really got to me were things that were different from the R&J original--things which lead me to believe that a very good interpretation into modern language would not work. The plays, both R&J and WSS, work as organic wholes. Having Juliet live at the end of R&J would simply not work, but having Maria close WSS in that manner was extraordinarily powerful. And of course, little things. Capulets and Montagues spoke the same language, had the same knowledge, and so Romeo & Juliet's interactions were of a completely different sort, linguistically, than Tony & Maria's. Learning to say "I love you" in a different language was very sweet in WSS, but of course would have no place in R&J.

There were other things as well, but I have no time at the moment...

 

[epepke]

Now with the broad band connection I have started to explore this field, the time difference is a limit though. The problem is that USA is a huge country and there are thousands of radio stations. I haven't finished yet exploring the jewish stations of NYC!!!

I'm not in a much better position to understand the radio in the US than you are. It seems to me that there isn't much radio theater that's national, although there is probably regional stuff that I'm not aware of. Most of the national radio theater happens occasionally happens on NPR. Prairie Home Companion does some radio theater, but it's mostly goofy.

I listen to a show called Theater of the Mind on WUFT FM (http://www.wuftfm.org/index.htm), which is a reasonably local Florida station. I think it's broadcast on the Internet, but I haven't tried it. It's mostly old radio shows, up until about 1965. It's on Sundays, 8:00 PM to 10:00 PM Eastern time, which is usually but not always GMT - 5.

WOR in New York used to have the Jean Shepherd show. But he's dead. I don't know if they have any reruns. He had a 45-minute show five times a week. It isn't exactly radio theater, more like storytelling. You may know Jean Shepherd from the movie A Christmas Story. I have about ten shows that I recorded when I was a kid. Almost all are excellent.

That's a very astute observation. One could even say that it's the limitations that can turn a technique into Art. A friend who is a photographer told me once though that the absence of limitations in cinema is part of the nature of this Art. I haven't decided yet if this is nothing more than a ratioinalization or if this makes a fair point...

Even in modern cinema, even when you can do almost anything within reason in CGI, there are a fair number of limitations. How do you show, for example, the inside of a cathedral with light streaming when the different brightnesses that the eye can see are 100 times greater than what you can show on film? How do you show a sunset, really? There's a whole lexicon of techniques.

 

[Sandy M]

I very much enjoyed Branagh's Henry V, Hamlet, Much Ado, McKellan's Richard III AND Olivier's Richard III, Olivier's Othello, Welles MacBeth; Kiss Me Kate is always fun, and even the Burton/Taylor version of Taming of the Shrew. I have to join the "nothing with DiCaprio" camp, though I DID see Gangs of New York and, shudder, Titanic. (liked the Little Old Lady and the special effects). Shakespear In Love was also enjoyable, and I recall a pretty conventional presentation of The Tempest, but I cannot remember who was in it. I couldn't watch Olivier's filmed version of Hamlet, but it was just that damned blond wig (or dye job?). I just couldn't get past it. Very shallow of me, I know.

Strange that no one has mentioned the VERY odd (bad? well....yeah) Branagh version of Love's Labour's Lost. As a '30s musical??? with predominantly non-singers/non dancers (Nathan Lane the only true Broadway musical performer in it)?? I have watched it several times however, with sort of the "car wreck" fasincation, I suppose.

 

[Mercutio]

Strange that no one has mentioned the VERY odd (bad? well....yeah) Branagh version of Love's Labour's Lost. As a '30s musical??? with predominantly non-singers/non dancers (Nathan Lane the only true Broadway musical performer in it)?? I have watched it several times however, with sort of the "car wreck" fasincation, I suppose.

I have seen this...hmm....and yet, did not mention it as a favorite...hmm...well, at least it is not as bad as Kline's Hamlet.

 

[Mercutio]

Although many of them may be fun to read, I don't think they're designed to be read. I think that they're designed to be acted and directed.

So people who have only experienced the classics or Shakespeare or Lope de Vega or Tirso de Molinas or Moliere or whomever through just reading them are missing something.

I missed this earlier. I agree with you wholeheartedly--was it Bloom, though, who argues that they are best when read? If it was him, and you are familiar with that, could you comment? If it wasn't him, I'll find out who it was I am thinking of when I get back to the office...

 

[Sandy M]

Well, I though we were doing like/disliked, not just favorite, and that Branagh Love's Labour's Lost was so...odd, so I thought I'd mention it.

Now, I apparently have (fortunately it would seem) missed Kevin Kline's Hamlet. This is a movie? Hmmm.... I generally like Kline, but Hamlet is not a role I envision him in. Must have been pretty bad from the frequency with which it has been disdainfully mentioned in this thread. Must have ranked right up there with Richard Dreyfuss bizarre Richard III in "The Goodbye Girl," eh?

 

[Mercutio]

Well, I though we were doing like/disliked, not just favorite, and that Branagh Love's Labour's Lost was so...odd, so I thought I'd mention it.

No, you are right and I am wrong on this. And in truth, I did not hate LLL, I just found it...well, as you say...odd.

Now, I apparently have (fortunately it would seem) missed Kevin Kline's Hamlet. This is a movie? Hmmm.... I generally like Kline, but Hamlet is not a role I envision him in. Must have been pretty bad from the frequency with which it has been disdainfully mentioned in this thread. Must have ranked right up there with Richard Dreyfuss bizarre Richard III in "The Goodbye Girl," eh?

At least that Richard III was supposed to be strange. Kline's Hamlet was just excruciatingly bad. Think of Hamlet's advice to the players, and think of an actor who really, really needs to heed that advice. Then multiply it by a factor of Kline.

 

[Sandy M]

It is interesting how many (American?) actors who are otherwise competent in many other roles falter when they tackle (the language of) Shakespeare. Perhaps The Method is not of much use in intrepreting Shakespeare?

I do think of Kline as more of a comic actor, and while I do not presume to say he is not/cannot be a dramatic actor, Hamlet would not be something I would expect him to do well, but I also, obviously incorrectly, would assume that at least some actors would know their own limitations. Apparently not.

Not really related to the thread in general (Shakespeare), but I do find it fascinating that while many British actors can flawlessly essay American accents in many varieties, American actors rarely can return the favor in essaying British accents. I think particularly of Kevin Costner (don't get me started!) and his on-again-off-again accent in his dreadful Robin Hood. I keep getting bombarded with the commercials for some new tv series, "House, MD" and it apparently starts a Brit, Hugh Laurie - but all the clips have him speaking without a trace of a British accent.

 

[epepke]

I missed this earlier. I agree with you wholeheartedly--was it Bloom, though, who argues that they are best when read? If it was him, and you are familiar with that, could you comment? If it wasn't him, I'll find out who it was I am thinking of when I get back to the office...

I'm not familiar with that, and I don't think it was he, so I guess not.

 

[epepke]

Not really related to the thread in general (Shakespeare), but I do find it fascinating that while many British actors can flawlessly essay American accents in many varieties, American actors rarely can return the favor in essaying British accents.

I quite disagree, here. There are some nominal Brits who spent their early years in the US who can do it, but the only Brit-to-adulthood I know of who could do an American accent was Peter Sellers. Most Brits, when they try to do an American accent, sound like they're from Cornwall.

 

[epepke]

I very much enjoyed Branagh's Henry V, Hamlet,

I liked Branagh's Hamlet, because practically all other versions of Hamlet that I've seen have Hamlet as your basic adolescent. But Branagh's version was actually Nietzschean, in a way.

As for the adolescent versions, I do think that Gibson did a good job. "Words, words, words" is, I think, one of the hardest lines in Shakespeare, and even though it was prop-based, I think he did it well. However, I didn't like how the ending was cut in that one.

Speaking of which, nobody has responded to my challenge for difficult passages.

 

[Sandy M]

Epepke - Well, maybe my ear's a little off. My mother and grandmother (born in Nottingham and London, respectively) and my greatgrandmother (Birkinhead) retained their accents through their lives, so it isn't as if I'm unfamiliar with British accents (not to mention watching all that Shakespeare, eh?) but I would not presume to say I am familiar with all regional dialects. I was thinking in particular of actors like Barry Morse (the original Lt. Gerard in The Fugitive). Until I saw him on a late night talk show, years ago, I hadn't the least idea he was British. Hugh Laurie, in the commercials for "House, "sounds "accentless" (to me), and in the original Danger Man series with Patrick McGoohan, my recollection is that he did not sound British. I know McGoohan was born in the US, but I believe he left at quite a young age. I hear the traces of Mel Gibson's Aussie accent in his speech much more, despite the fact that he was - what? 12? when he left the U.S.