Shakespeare Movies

[epepke]

Epepke - Well, maybe my ear's a little off. My mother and grandmother (born in Nottingham and London, respectively) and my greatgrandmother (Birkinhead) retained their accents through their lives, so it isn't as if I'm unfamiliar with British accents (not to mention watching all that Shakespeare, eh?) but I would not presume to say I am familiar with all regional dialects. I was thinking in particular of actors like Barry Morse (the original Lt. Gerard in The Fugitive). Until I saw him on a late night talk show, years ago, I hadn't the least idea he was British. Hugh Laurie, in the commercials for "House, "sounds "accentless" (to me), and in the original Danger Man series with Patrick McGoohan, my recollection is that he did not sound British. I know McGoohan was born in the US, but I believe he left at quite a young age. I hear the traces of Mel Gibson's Aussie accent in his speech much more, despite the fact that he was - what? 12? when he left the U.S.

Being a cunning linguist, I don't have a concept of "accentless" and am pretty attuned to variations even in the US.

I don't remember Barry Morse, so I can't comment. You're referring, I presume, to the original Fugitive television series? I used to watch this as a kid, and while I don't remember the name Gerard, I remember a sort of Cornish drawl to the character who was trying to catch him.

I haven't seen the commercials for "House," either.

McGoohan has dual US/Irish citizenship and so is not really British, but I do hear a fairly strong British tone in his speech.

Peter Seller's midwestern accent when playing the President in Dr. Strangelove was excellent. There were only a couple of lines where he broke it.

 

[Sandy M]

Sorry, "accentless" was careless writing - I mean, not a noticeable British accent (I realize that covers a LOT of ground). McGoohan's has in all his recent roles spoken with what I presume is his natural slight Anglo/Irish (?) accent, but it seemed to me in the Danger Man series that he was supposed to be "American" and I vaguely remember an article where he stated that he was, indeed, supposed to sound American in that role, and that while he was also "John Drake" in Secret Agent, that series was originally made more for the British Market and so he spoke in his natural accent. Whatever. I still think most Brits' efforts at sounding "'Murrican" are more effective than most Americans' attempts at affecting British accents.

 

[epepke]

I still think most Brits' efforts at sounding "'Murrican" are more effective than most Americans' attempts at affecting British accents.

Maybe, but neither is very good. I'm probably bringing rarefied and esoteric sensibilities here, as I've studied lingiustics (historical, cultural/anthropological, and structural) quite a lot.

There's sort of a gross notion of "accentless." Many people tell me that I speak Spanish without an accent, by which I think they mean that it's not particularly Anglo. But I've spoken Spanish with Cubans and Mexicans, and the accents seem to me worlds apart. I probably have something between them, but I can adapt more-or-less to either accent. Maybe it's sort of like how Mel Blanc created the accent for Bugs Bunny by blending Brooklyn and Bronx accents.

Actually, the thing that is usually called the American "accentless" English is a regional dialect of southern California. I was quite surprised the first time I went to LA, because everywhere else I had ever been, most people had different accents. I grew up in New York with Midwestern parents and at around 11 moved to Florida with Bavarian grandparents. I had developed this accent which seemed to me slightly unusual, and people told me they couldn't tell where I was from by listening to it. When I went to LA, I realized that I had an LA accent.

I think it's because southern California is where most of the movies are made, and so a lot of people were exposed to that accent via Hollywood films. Maybe a lot of Brits see a lot of Hollywood movies. But still, they tend to go way overboard on the "r," the vowels are usually too clipped, and the delivery is too syllabic rather than phrasal.

 

[Sandy M]

Interesting that you would speak of SoCal being a source of "accentless" speech. I was born and have lived all my life in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I once took a little "test" that was supposed to determine your origin by how you prounounced various words. According to the little "test, " I was born east of the Allegheny Mts. I do tend to broaden SOME "A"s and, apparently, enunciate more clearly than some of my contemporaries. One of the tests was whether or not you pronounced each of these three words differently (which I do): merry, marry, Mary.

Obviously, you have a much more developed "ear" than I!

 

[epepke]

Interesting that you would speak of SoCal being a source of "accentless" speech. I was born and have lived all my life in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I once took a little "test" that was supposed to determine your origin by how you prounounced various words. According to the little "test, " I was born east of the Allegheny Mts. I do tend to broaden SOME "A"s and, apparently, enunciate more clearly than some of my contemporaries. One of the tests was whether or not you pronounced each of these three words differently (which I do): merry, marry, Mary.

I wonder. Are any of your relatives from north of San Francisco? Because this is a characteristic of Marin county up to Washington.

I also pronounce all three differently, but the distinction between "Mary" and "merry" is fairly subtle.

 

[Sandy M]

No, all my maternal relatives (very few in the U.S.) are British, and my father's family are Spanish Californians from the San Jose and Central Valley (great-great-great grandparents from Almaden, Spain.)

 

[Mercutio]

Interesting...I can hear a difference in the way I pronounce merry, marry, and Mary, but I am guessing that most people would not notice that difference in my pronunciation. I guess both the pronunciation and the ear are factors in whether or not the words are homophones.

I had talks in college about this topic (while reading Pygmalion, naturally). A friend from Greece was convinced that all Americans sounded alike (she could hear no difference between Downeast Maine and Deep South, which shocked me--but this was her first semester in the states; I am guessing that by her senior year she thought differently), and was shocked that I could reliably tell the difference between speakers from Toledo and Cleveland (I lived halfway between the two), when most folk think a "Northern Ohio" accent is what both share. I am fascinated by accents; I have been told that I pick them up quickly and accurately, but my suspicion is that this is mostly in the ear of those particular beholders.

 

[Cleopatra]

Since I am foreigner who has lived both in UK and USA this is my 2c on accents.

Accents in Great Britain vary a lot as they vary in USA what distinguishes them though is that a foreigner can always understand an American ( even if he comes from Texas where they speak as if they are chewing gum all day long) but in many cases it's impossible to understand a British and i am not exaggerating right now. When I first went to England I almost felt that I didn't know the language, I couldn't understand what the blacks in the buses were saying and if you left the buildings of Cambridge you felt as if you have moved to a part of the country where they didn't speak the same language they spoke in those building or at least this is how it sounded.

In USA although I could tell the differences( for example I love the accent of the South--I am having in mind Virginia and Alabama that can be distinguished from the accent of Texas) but the most important thing is that I could always understand what people were talking about.

Even now you can notice the difference between the speakers of BBC and CNN. BBC people are speaking perfect and clear English and yet not as clear as the speakers of CNN do .In my opinion the later speak the most clear English one can listen to.

How was the joke that Professor Higgins was saying in My Fair Lady? If somebody speaks clear English he must not be British.

 

[epepke]

Since I am foreigner who has lived both in UK and USA this is my 2c on accents.

Accents in Great Britain vary a lot as they vary in USA what distinguishes them though is that a foreigner can always understand an American ( even if he comes from Texas where they speak as if they are chewing gum all day long) but in many cases it's impossible to understand a British and i am not exaggerating right now.

The Britsh don't necessarily even understand each other. I remember being in a shop, and a woman was asking for some cigarettes. The shopkeeper though she wanted "Players," but she was really asking for "Bel-Air."

 

[alfaniner]

Just saw Branagh's Henry V last weekend, as an accompaniment to doing a half-Marathon on the treadmill. (I don't know -- is it disrespectful to be working out when watching Shakespeare?) Not having seen or read much by the Bard, I was quite impressed by it. I highly doubt I would have understood all the subtleties had I experienced it in high school.

Loved the 1930's version of A Midsummer Night's Dream, and also recently saw the DiCaprio/Danes Romeo and Juliet. An intriguing look at the story to be sure, but most of my familiarity with it had been from seeing West Side Story many times, and I was drawing parallels to that, instead of the original story.

My "suspension of disbelief" was severely strained with Shakespeare in Love, mostly due to the fact that the guy playing Shakespeare looked exactly like Prince.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Branagh's Hamlet was veerrryy looong - 4 hours, with an intermission after 2 and a half hours which made me think 'if this is half way, then oh my god!'.

My problem with Hamlet is that nothing really happens for hours, then you get a decent body count in the final half hour - surely the death rate could have been better timed!

I enjoyed greatly the Baz Luhrman Romeo and Juliet, although the amount of cutting in the opening scene made my eyes hurt. (Just saw Terminater 3 again last night - I think Clare Danes looked her best in R & J!).

 

[Cleopatra]

Is there a speck of historical thruth in the info about Shakespeare that I learned lately: I have read that the Bard was a regular in a " Mermaid's Pub".

I checked a couple of sources but I didn't come up with something. Has any of you heard it before?

 

[bigred]

Oh, I'll just spoil it.

Gee thanks.

:schmuck:

 

[bigred]

Branagh's speech in Henry V makes me want to run out and go shoot arrows at frenchmen.

You need a speech to evoke that feeling?

 

[crimresearch]

So how come the theater geeks can differentiate between so many variations of language, accent, intent, and emotion, but they can't learn to pronounce 'dramaturge' correctly?

 

[bigred]

In some ways, I think the limitations on an art form are as important as the art itself. Sometimes, I think, movies and computer games suffer simply because it's so easy to do impressive things.

Talk about the understatement of the year.

Not sure if this was posted but has anyone seen Pacino's Merchant of Venice (or is it not out yet, or....)? I've only heard about it recently in passing. Just wondering.

 

[Mercutio]

Is there a speck of historical thruth in the info about Shakespeare that I learned lately: I have read that the Bard was a regular in a " Mermaid's Pub".

I checked a couple of sources but I didn't come up with something. Has any of you heard it before?

From my Oxford Companion to Shakespeare:

Mermaid Tavern, a tavern in Bread Street, London, in which, according to Thomas Coryat, writing in 1615, aristocrats and intellectuals assembled on the first Friday of each month during the early years of the 17th century for convivial conversation. A verse letter of uncertain date and authorship, often ascribed to Beaumont, addressed from the country to Jonson, speaks nostalgically of the 'full mermaid wine' and the 'things' done and spoken there:

                Words that have been
So nimble, and so full of subtle flame,
As if that everyone from whom they came
Had meant to put his whole wit in a jest
And had resolved to live a fool for the rest
Of his dull life.

There is no evidence that Shakespeare was a member of the circle. The legend that the Mermaid was the scene of the 'wit combats' which according to Thomas Fuller took place between Shakespeare and Jonson derives from William Gifford in his 1816 edition of Jonson.

Too bad, actually; I think the character of Mercutio could only be improved with a little 'full mermaid wine'.

 

[Cleopatra]

Thank you Mercutio!

The absence of evidence doesn't constitute evidence of absence.

I choose to believe this legend.

 

[Mercutio]

Thank you Mercutio!

The absence of evidence doesn't constitute evidence of absence.

I choose to believe this legend.

I have only begun my search for evidence! The legend is so attractive, it is worth a few more peeks here and there...hmmm...an old prof of mine, if he is still alive, was president of the American Shakespeare Society. If anyone on this side of the pond knows, it would be him...

But for now...you believe in the absence of any evidence? or could you share where it is you heard the story (and perhaps narrow my search considerably)?

 

[Mercutio]

From a book review:

This article presents information related to literature. "Hearken to a Persian Tale," as it was the fashion to say in the social essays of a hundred years ago, Noureddin All, an engaging youth just arrived at man's estate, was the favorite son of Schemseddin Mohammed, an officer of high rank in the household of the Shah of Persia. It is possible, to conceive of William Shakespeare sitting at the board of the Mermaid, with his left leg crossed over the knee of the right, and his head bowed on his hands, while Ben Jonson should stand up over against him and read into his face the praises of his giftedness and compliments to him on his lovableness.

(emphasis mine) The review is of the book "Hearken to a Persian Tale", from 1868. Oddly enough, the database gives no authors, either of the book or of the review.

Edited to add...I did find one scholarly article on the question:

Shakespeare at the Mermaid Tavern: Fact or Fiction? By: Winter, Guillaume; Folio: Shakespeare-Genootschap van Nederland en Vlaanderen, 2003; 10 (2): 5-18. (journal article)

our library does not carry the journal, so interlibrary loan it is...unless someone else here has quicker access through their own library.