SF Weekly: "Who's Crazier - Birthers or Truthers?"

[linusrichard]

He was once one of the Deputy Attorney Generals of Pennsylvania. So that probably does make him prominent.

Just for fun, and without googling, can you name any other person whose highest position is state deputy AG? I know I can't. I guess "prominent" is a matter of perspective, but no, I don't consider a former state deputy AG to be "prominent."

And I believe he is a registered Democrat, so that has a high probability of making him a liberal.

Whatever works for you.

...

But despite all of this, I'd still call the 911 cultists crazier. So since Berg is one of the cultists guess where that places him.

One of the craziest of the crazies? Here we agree!

 

[LashL]

My bad, one of the videos I saw called him a senator.

I found this in searching for his position and title:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA

He has brought lots of frivolous lawsuits in recent years; the birther one is just the most recent. He acted for William Rodriguez, the WTC custodian cum conspiracy fantasist who deceitfully calls himself the "last man out" and dishonestly claims to have "saved hundreds of lives", and who sued George Bush and 155 others, for instance. You can read the court documents on that one here. (It was, of course, dismissed by the court, although Rodriguez, bizarrely, denies it).

But despite all of this, I'd still call the 911 cultists crazier. So since Berg is one of the cultists guess where that places him.

I agree that the 9/11 conspiracy fantasists are crazier than the "birthers". Both groups are nutty, and Berg belongs to both groups, which makes him among the craziest of the bunch.

 

[Eyeron]

Just for fun, and without googling, can you name any other person whose highest position is state deputy AG? I know I can't. I guess "prominent" is a matter of perspective, but no, I don't consider a former state deputy AG to be "prominent."

Without googling I wouldn't be able to either, I had to search for his credentials in order to be sure he truly did have a prominent position.

According to Wiki, here's what a DAG does:

United States Deputy Attorney General is the second-highest-ranking official in the United States Department of Justice. In the United States federal government, the Deputy Attorney General oversees the day-to-day operation of the Department of Justice, and may act as Attorney General during the absence of the Attorney General. The Deputy Attorney General is appointed by the President of the United States with the advice and consent of the United States Senate. The position was created in 1950.[1]

On March 12, 2009, Barack Obama's nominee David W. Ogden was confirmed by the US Senate in a vote of 65-28

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Deputy_Attorney_General

So how is that not a prominent position? How do you define prominent?


However the problem I've come across is that it doesn't say there is more than one. For example, it said in another article I was reading that Berg was one of 40 DAGs of Pennsylvania so I am confused there.

However, here is another site that defines the duties of a DAG:

* Exercise all the power and authority of the Attorney General unless any such power or authority is required by law to be exercised by the Attorney General personally or has been specifically delegated exclusively to another Department official.


* Represent DOJ at White House coordination meetings of the National Security Council and Homeland Security Council, and maintain staff to address related Justice policy.


* Act on behalf of the Attorney General for purposes of authorizing searches and electronic surveillance under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and Executive Order 12333 on Intelligence.


* Review and recommend to the Attorney General whether to seek or decline to seek the death penalty in specific cases.


* Act as initial contact with the White House on pending criminal matters.


* Recommend to the White House, after consultation with the Office of the Pardon Attorney, whether the President should grant specific petitions of pardon or commutation of sentence.


* Be responsible for all DOJ attorney personnel matters, including final action in matters pertaining to the employment, separation, and discipline (except for GS-15 and below attorney matters which have been delegated to the Office of Attorney Recruitment and Management.


* Coordinate and control the Department’s reaction to civil disturbances and terrorism.


* Oversee budget matters as well as certify to Congress the cost-effectiveness of DOJ investments in information technology.


* Set enforcement priorities in consultation with the Attorney General, to address key priorities, chair inter-and intra-agency task forces and organizations, e.g., National Procurement Fraud Task Force, International Organized Crime Council, National Corporate Fraud Task Force, Anti-Gang Coordination Committee, Attorney General Advisory Committee.


* Manage high-priority program offices that reside within ODAG, e.g, Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force, Privacy and Civil Liberties Office, the Faith Based and Community Initiatives Task Force, and the Iraq Rule of Law program.


* Perform such other activities and functions as may be assigned from time to time by the Attorney General.

http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/mps/manual/ag.htm

So why would this not be a prominent position? How do you define a prominent position then?

 

[Horatius]

However the problem I've come across is that it doesn't say there is more than one. For example, it said in another article I was reading that Berg was one of 40 DAGs of Pennsylvania so I am confused there.

However, here is another site that defines the duties of a DAG:


http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/mps/manual/ag.htm

So why would this not be a prominent position? How do you define a prominent position then?

I think you missed a key word in the phrase "a former state deputy AG".

 

[linusrichard]

I think you missed a key word in the phrase "a former state deputy AG".

Indeed - and it's a little word that makes a big difference. US DAG, maybe a prominent position. Maybe semi-prominent. Certainly a high-ranking position, important, prestigious, powerful, etc. At the same time, David W. Ogden isn't exactly a household name. In fact, browsing through the last 5 or 10 US DAGs, I only recognized those (Eric Holder and Jamie Gorelick) who are prominent for other reasons.

But a state DAG is a horse of an entirely different color.

From the Pennsylvania AG's website:

Deputy Attorney General I

This is entry level professional work providing legal services of a varied nature. Primary assignments involve assisting attorneys of higher rank by researching, interpreting and applying laws, court decisions, and other legal authorities in the preparation of briefs, pleadings, complaints, presentments and other legal papers in connection with suits, trials, and other proceedings. The difficulty of legal problems encountered ranges from simple to moderately complex. Attorneys in this class seldom appear in court without attorneys of higher rank.

The minimum qualifications for this class are graduation from an accredited law school and admission to the Bar of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.

Now, I'm not saying Philip Berg was a Deputy Attorney General I. He could have been a II, III, IV, or even a Chief or Executive Deputy Attorney General. I'm just saying that if all we know is that he was a Deputy Attorney General, then we don't have enough information to know if he held a position of prominence, because it could have been a relatively low-ranking position.

 

[Eyeron]

So the definition of prominent would be defined by how well known or famous a person has to be?

I just can't agree with that definition of prominent.

 

[linusrichard]

So the definition of prominent would be defined by how well known or famous a person has to be?

I just can't agree with that definition of prominent.

m-w.com:

2 a : readily noticeable : conspicuous b : widely and popularly known : leading

dictionary.com:

3. leading, important, or well-known: a prominent citizen.

What definition do you want?

 

[240-185]

Thierry Meyssan and his Voltaire network are also both birthers and truthers.

 

[Eyeron]

What definition do you want?

By that definition, the position of Vice President Of America would not be a prominent position. Because when you think of it, the VP is just not famous and most people don't even know what he does or who he is. The President is far more more visible. That's why I don't agree with that definition.

So there probably should be a better definition of prominent than just being famous.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

Truther in GOP

I seem to remember the truthers making a big deal out of some "prominent" former Republican officials claiming 9/11 was an "inside job." Was one a former staff for Bob Dole years before and one was an under-secretary for Bush I or some such. Given the large number of folks that work for both parties--both as elected and non-elected over the years-- I think you'd be able to find some in each party with a tinfoil hat firmly screwed on.

That said, I wish a few leaders in the Congressional GOP would publicly, and loudly say that the birthers are nuts. Sort of take them down like President Clinton did the twoofers who disrupted one of Hillary's 2008 primary rallies...

 

[dudalb]

Well, then, let me just say right now that I don't want to see the "mooners."

Do. Not. Want.

Thank you!

The semi official title for The Moon Hoax believers is "Moon Bats".

 

[oldhat]

The defensive truther-rationalizing comments at the bottom of the Weekly article are hilarious.

 

[Chaos]

The semi official title for The Moon Hoax believers is "Moon Bats".

I thought it was "the people who put ´luna´ into ´lunatics´"?

 

[linusrichard]

By that definition, the position of Vice President Of America would not be a prominent position. Because when you think of it, the VP is just not famous and most people don't even know what he does or who he is. The President is far more more visible. That's why I don't agree with that definition.

So there probably should be a better definition of prominent than just being famous.

I disagree completely. The Vice President of the US is famous. Let's go back a few posts to my unscientific prominence test: Without googling, how many Vice Presidents of the US can you name? I can name the current one and the previous nine with no trouble at all, as well as several others. The President is more prominent than the Vice President, no doubt. But the Vice President is prominent. I can't name the last ten Secretaries of State, or the last ten Secretaries of Defense, or the last ten Attorneys General.

But anyway, put that all aside, my question to you was "What definition do you want?" So, what definition do you want?

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

By that definition, the position of Vice President Of America would not be a prominent position. Because when you think of it, the VP is just not famous and most people don't even know what he does or who he is.

The position of Vice President of the United States is extremely well-known. It's not necessary for one to know what, exactly, that position requires--or even who currently holds it--for it to be considered a prominent position.

The President is far more more visible. That's why I don't agree with that definition.

Prominence isn't unique. That is to say, there isn't only one person or position that can claim prominence. The POTUS is a prominent position. So is the VPOTUS.

 

[Eyeron]

I disagree completely. The Vice President of the US is famous. Let's go back a few posts to my unscientific prominence test: Without googling, how many Vice Presidents of the US can you name? I can name the current one and the previous nine with no trouble at all, as well as several others. The President is more prominent than the Vice President, no doubt. But the Vice President is prominent. I can't name the last ten Secretaries of State, or the last ten Secretaries of Defense, or the last ten Attorneys General.

But anyway, put that all aside, my question to you was "What definition do you want?" So, what definition do you want?

Here's a test for you: take a walk through the streets of the city where you live and ask people if they know who the Vice President is and if they can name him. Of course the more educated people and those who are concerned with politics as a hobby or occupation of some sort will know, but the average person on the street won't or just won't care who the Vice President is.

As far as my definition of prominent goes, I just don't think that a prominent position should be defined by fame factor alone. It seems to me there are many important jobs out there that aren't really well known that do have an affect on many people's lives. For example, say the director of the Center For Disease Control. Or the director of a city's power plant. And so on. Because these people aren't famous it wouldn't be considered a prominent position and therefore unimportant. I guess what I am trying to say is that there probably should be more factors to determine how to define what is a prominent position. But I don't know how to express that definition properly.

 

[linusrichard]

Here's a test for you: take a walk through the streets of the city where you live and ask people if they know who the Vice President is and if they can name him. Of course the more educated people and those who are concerned with politics as a hobby or occupation of some sort will know, but the average person on the street won't or just won't care who the Vice President is.

I would wager that if you went out into the street and asked people if they knew who was occupying various government positions, more people would know who the Vice President is than any other official other than the President.

As far as my definition of prominent goes, I just don't think that a prominent position should be defined by fame factor alone. It seems to me there are many important jobs out there that aren't really well known that do have an affect on many people's lives. For example, say the director of the Center For Disease Control. Or the director of a city's power plant. And so on. Because these people aren't famous it wouldn't be considered a prominent position and therefore unimportant. I guess what I am trying to say is that there probably should be more factors to determine how to define what is a prominent position. But I don't know how to express that definition properly.

Okay. But that's just not what "prominent" means. I don't know what else to tell you, I'm sorry. It doesn't mean "important." It means visible, conspicuous, well known. Kanye West is more prominent than Ben Bernanke. Paris Hilton is more prominent than Robert Gates. Is this good? No. Is this bad? Maybe. But it is true. Sorry.

 

[Eyeron]

Yes, it is true, I just find it a very limiting definition.

 

[Horatius]

Yes, it is true, I just find it a very limiting definition.

Some definitions should be limiting.

Rather than waffling about which "prominent" people might support a given theory, why not simply ask, which "prominent and/or important" people support it?

In any case, it looks like a state deputy AG is neither prominent nor important, so the whole question is kind of silly.

 

[Eyeron]

I did just that for the 911 conspiracy and here's one website I got:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport

Which beggars the question how can these people with such credentials believe such rubbish?

But I'm having a lot of problems trying to find out which of our Congressmen and Senators who support the idea of Obama not being a citizen.

Added:

After doing some more research I found this Wiki Article on Andy martin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Martin_(U.S._politician)

It's kind of hard to pin him down as either a liberal or a conservative though. But he was the one who first started the rumors of Obama being a Muslim and launched a lawsuit against the state of Hawii to release Obama's original paper certificate.

He also believes that Obama is the son of Frank Marshall Davis, an African American journalist and political activist who wrote for a newspaper in Hawaii in the 1940s and 1950s that was accused by the House Un-American Activities Committee as being a front for the Communist Party USA.

I am still searching for more information.