Sexually abusing a child while Female

[TurkeysGhost]

Once again, people just cannot help themselves and stray off-topic before the ink is dry on the OP.

I'm not talking about off-topic in an ISF rules-sense but the FACTS of the case here are that
1) this teacher -- a position of authority
who is
2) an adult -- a position of authority
when referring to
a) a student -- a position of submission
who is
b) a 13 year-old child -- a position of submission

IS ILLEGAL and UNETHICAL for these reasons.

It has nothing to do with some imagined fantasy. It has nothing to do with peers and normal sexuality amongst the 16 - 18 year old crowd, nor does it have anything to do with 19 - twentysomethings who just so happen to have a sexual relationship with someone a few years younger who might be mature enough to be able to handle the relationship.

If people wish to condemn THESE FACTS then great. If people wish to defend THESE FACTS then even better. Maybe someone is willing to play devil's advocate to try and defend THIS SITUATION but I frankly do not.

To me, in my opinion, I think the double standards of gender in this case is probably the most compelling point of it all and I'm guessing that's why it was posted.

The US is a patchwork of state laws, so whoever tries to bring up edge cases about age of consent is such a general way is engaged in pointless derailing.

Your point is well taken. No matter how you slice it, a schoolteacher engaging in any kind of sexual contact with a 13 year old student is rape.

Gender really biases how people react to these cases. Lots of people are happy to point out that young teenage boys are often quite eager to receive sexual attention from women, any women, including their adult teachers. To my mind, this does little to mitigate the obvious criminality and predatory nature of such a teacher. If anything, it emphasizes the need to remove such a teacher from an environment of easy victims.

There is no doubt there would be more outrage if an adult male teacher raped a 13 year old female student under similar circumstances.

 

[Checkmite]

There is no doubt there would be more outrage if an adult male teacher raped a 13 year old female student under similar circumstances.

Personally, I feel the discrepancy is best explained by a lack of women standing by to say "Oh HELL yes, what a lucky kid! If some teacher had done that to me it would've been the best day of my life!!!" when such a case (male teacher/female victim) is reported.

In my experience, women will acknowledge that girls also often fantasize about adults, including teachers. The difference is, comparatively fewer women are okay with adults exploiting that situation, than men seem to be in a reversed case.

 

[Darat]

Sexual relationships between adults and children are exploitative by definition, which is the entire reason they are illegal and why the laws don't allow the adult to argue "but it wasn't abusive sex!" as a positive defense. I can't believe I have to explain this.

I think you need to be more careful in the wording you are using. Generally a definition of children doesn't define children to mean "under the age of consent", even though of course all children are under the age of consent.

The example mentioned earlier was 14, until 2001 I believe the age of consent in Hawaii was 14...

This is why I think you have to be careful, for all the good and right reasons we have a legal and enforced age of consent we can't pretend that it acts as magic spell. If 16 is the age of consent in your area someone doesn't magically become immune from the harm of an abusive sexual relationship on their birthday.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Personally, I feel the discrepancy is best explained by a lack of women standing by to say "Oh HELL yes, what a lucky kid! If some teacher had done that to me it would've been the best day of my life!!!" when such a case (male teacher/female victim) is reported.

In my experience, women will acknowledge that girls also often fantasize about adults, including teachers. The difference is, comparatively fewer women are okay with adults exploiting that situation, than men seem to be in a reversed case.

I would agree with that. I also don't really see women circling the wagons to protect the rapist, it's more people (and men specifically) not really caring as much.

There is also more obsession with guarding female virginity than male virginity

 

[Checkmite]

I think you need to be more careful in the wording you are using. Generally a definition of children doesn't define children to mean "under the age of consent", even though of course all children are under the age of consent.

Right but remember, my issue was with Arcade22 asserting that an argument could be made that going to the police might be detrimental rather than helpful. Since there's nothing to go to police about in the case of a relationship with someone of consenting age, it's self-evident that Arcade22 must be talking about children who are in fact under the age of consent when giving that opinion.

 

[qayak]

Personally, I feel the discrepancy is best explained by a lack of women standing by to say "Oh HELL yes, what a lucky kid! If some teacher had done that to me it would've been the best day of my life!!!" when such a case (male teacher/female victim) is reported.

In my experience, women will acknowledge that girls also often fantasize about adults, including teachers. The difference is, comparatively fewer women are okay with adults exploiting that situation, than men seem to be in a reversed case.

So women are now the decider on men's sexuality? Turn that around and see how far your fellow SJWs will let you go.

Men have a different view of sex than women do. You want a one size fits all outrage and it just isn't going to happen.

And I know a lot of older women who say they wish they had been more sexually active in their youth but were constrained by societal expectations.

SJWs just love deciding the victimhood of other people. This 14 year old didn't feel they were a victim but you do. I suggest they are more prepared for the real world at 14 than you are at your current age.

 

[Checkmite]

So

No.

This 14 year old didn't feel they were a victim but you do.

Which 14 year old?

 

[sadhatter]

I could easily befriend an autistic person and make them perfectly okay with giving me money, gifts etc. To the point where severing this relationship would cause them severe distress.

According to some, if I was this much of an evil ******* I should be let off the hook because I was manipulative enough.

Wow is all I have to say. Essentially the arguement boils down to " as long as you are good enough at manipulation you should be able to bang those who are vulnerable. " . Not a moral stance I can respect.

 

[p0lka]

Because no one has dropped down the elephant in the room ITT: yes, schoolboys fantasizing about sex with their attractive teachers is a well-known universal American phenomenon. In support of which, I submit the peer-reviewed research of Van Halen, Roth, et all:

haha, which was the point I made about myself at 14/15.

then I got this as a reply..

You seem to have changed your tune.

Your fantasies about children being sexually abused have been duly noted.

 

[Checkmite]

I could easily befriend an autistic person and make them perfectly okay with giving me money, gifts etc. To the point where severing this relationship would cause them severe distress.

According to some, if I was this much of an evil ******* I should be let off the hook because I was manipulative enough.

It's essentially the same argument people are implying when they point out that kids sometimes fantasize about their teachers - the perpetrator should get a free ride, or at least an easy one, as a reward for having chosen an easy mark.

 

[Delvo]

So, at what point does a person doing what (s)he wants to do become... a real person who can really want to do it, instead of just a victim of someone else's mind control?

 

[qayak]

I could easily befriend an autistic person a normal, healthy adult and make them perfectly okay with giving me money, gifts etc. To the point where severing this relationship would cause them severe distress.

FTFY. It happens everyday and nowhere in that arc of a story is there abuse. There could be but nothing indicates there is. The same holds true when one person is autistic.

Autistic people have non-abusive relationships all the time, but your claim seems to be that any relationship they choose to be in is automatically abusive. You have a pretty messed up view.

 

[qayak]

So, at what point does a person doing what (s)he wants to do become... a real person who can really want to do it, instead of just a victim of someone else's mind control?

When SJWs decide either the person is old enough, or the situation isn't too high on the SJW's personal yucky meter, or when they can no longer relate the activity to another, albeit irrelevant, activity.

Of course they will never condone people making their own choices but they will sit back with their arms crossed while making irritating huffing sounds to show their displeasure. That's about the best you can hope for.

 

[bluesjnr]

When SJWs decide either the person is old enough, or the situation isn't too high on the SJW's personal yucky meter, or when they can no longer relate the activity to another, albeit irrelevant, activity.

Of course they will never condone people making their own choices but they will sit back with their arms crossed while making irritating huffing sounds to show their displeasure. That's about the best you can hope for.

Why such condemnation for those who may be concerned about inappropriate sexual behaviour towards minors?

Can you clarify your position for me, please?. If I'm reading you correctly you seem to be of the opinion that there is no merit to anybody who may find the illegal act of having a sexual relationship with a minor..... well.... wrong!

You accused somebody earlier of wanting a "one size fits all outrage" but aren't you looking for a "one size fits all" the other way?

I must be misunderstanding you.

 

[Belz...]

I could easily befriend an autistic person and make them perfectly okay with giving me money, gifts etc.

Really? That is fascinating and not at all an insulting oversimplification of autistic people.

 

[Darat]

I could easily befriend an autistic person and make them perfectly okay with giving me money, gifts etc. To the point where severing this relationship would cause them severe distress.

According to some, if I was this much of an evil ******* I should be let off the hook because I was manipulative enough.

Wow is all I have to say. Essentially the arguement boils down to " as long as you are good enough at manipulation you should be able to bang those who are vulnerable. " . Not a moral stance I can respect.

Sadhatter don't know why but you are arguing against your own straw man. No one in this thread has said it is OK what happened, that the teacher wasnt in the wrong, that the teacher shouldn't be punished and so on.

 

[Darat]

It's essentially the same argument people are implying when they point out that kids sometimes fantasize about their teachers - the perpetrator should get a free ride, or at least an easy one, as a reward for having chosen an easy mark.

You also seem to be arguing against your own straw man. No one has argued that because some young people under the age of consent will have fantasies about their teachers that teachers should be allowed to have sex with those pupils.

 

[Craig4]

haha, which was the point I made about myself at 14/15.

then I got this as a reply..

Can we stipulate that just because kids may fantasize about sex with a teacher it doesn't make it a god idea? Fantasy doesn't carry all the baggage of real life.

 

[Darat]

So, at what point does a person doing what (s)he wants to do become... a real person who can really want to do it, instead of just a victim of someone else's mind control?

In regards to having sex that is in most countries a matter for the legislative. As are most of these things.

But we do have to understand that just because there is no other better way to protect young people from sexual abuse such age of consents are arbitrary and do not create nor accurately model reality.

I absolutely 100% want to protect young people from situations that they are preyed upon by abusers but because I know I was having sex 4 years before I was legally allowed to have sex and I know none of that was abusive or exploitative I also know that no matter what a line in a law says reality is quite different.

The people I had sex with who were literally a minute older than me when it was illegal for me to have sex could have faced lengthy prison sentences. That to me is still wrong.

Now in the case that started this thread I'm happy with a black and white line in legislation, a teacher cant have sex with a pupil regardless of age as I cant think of any better way to prevent the potential use of a position of authority to abuse.

 

[Darat]

Can we stipulate that just because kids may fantasize about sex with a teacher it doesn't make it a god idea? Fantasy doesn't carry all the baggage of real life.

Absolutely. It doesn't mean any teacher has an "excuse" to fulfil the pupil's fantasy.

There was one teacher in my high school that many of us fancied, I suspect that if the chance came up for any of us to have had sex with him we would have jumped at the chance. Still doesn't mean he should have have had sex with any pupil even if a pupil had passed the age of consent.