Sexual Education

[Upchurch]

Of course you can. What sort of stupid question is that?

It's no dumber than suggesting that schools should do the parents' job of raising their kids for them.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

It's no dumber than suggesting that schools should do the parents' job of raising their kids for them.

It isn't a black and white issue. The job of raising the child is partly the state and partly the parents. They should compliment each other.

 

[Upchurch]

It isn't a black and white issue. The job of raising the child is partly the state and partly the parents. They should compliment each other.

I agree except that I think schools should teach the kids information and parents should teach kids values.

Let's try it this way. You want schools to teach kids what is acceptible moral behavior and what isn't, right? Well, what religion should they teach them, then?

 

[Mr Manifesto]

I agree except that I think schools should teach the kids information and parents should teach kids values.

Let's try it this way. You want schools to teach kids what is acceptible moral behavior and what isn't, right? Well, what religion should they teach them, then?

Religion is one of the things best left to the family. There are too many different religions to be taught in schools. What should be taught in schools is the toleration of other religions -for a timely example- the tenents of Islam and how they aren't wild-eyed fanatics.

 

[Sundog]

If you cannot see then I'm afraid you are wasting my time.

Hi, Mr. Manifesto. I think you're dismissing this one too easily. Although you could probably define these things as "teaching patriotism", they are really not, at least in the real world. It's something kids pretty much do without thinking and without attaching too much importance to it.

Considering that you are talking about a class, I think a fairer example would be a class about patriotism. These don't exist in American schools. We have civics classes which teach people the nuts and bolts of American government. Believe me, if there were classes in patriotism, I'd be plenty upset; that's MY job to teach that.

If you will excuse the observation, your arguments aren't helped by calling people names.

Do you believe it is appropriate to use classes for indoctrinational purposes in general? Who decides the agenda? The problem with your scenario is that someone besides The Peepul is deciding the agenda. Surely you see the problem that represents, and the can of worms you'd be opening?

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Hi, Mr. Manifesto. I think you're dismissing this one too easily. Although you could probably define these things as "teaching patriotism", they are really not, at least in the real world. It's something kids pretty much do without thinking and without attaching too much importance to it.

Considering that you are talking about a class, I think a fairer example would be a class about patriotism. These don't exist in American schools. We have civics classes which teach people the nuts and bolts of American government. Believe me, if there were classes in patriotism, I'd be plenty upset; that's MY job to teach that.

If you will excuse the observation, your arguments aren't helped by calling people names.

Do you believe it is appropriate to use classes for indoctrinational purposes in general? Who decides the agenda? The problem with your scenario is that someone besides The Peepul is deciding the agenda. Surely you see the problem that represents, and the can of worms you'd be opening?

I don't see how telling someone they are wasting my time is calling them names. Especially if that someone is wasting my time. I also don't see how teaching tolerance of homosexuality is indoctrinational. Even if it were, there are some doctrines taught in schols. You cannot tell me that just because there isn't a class called 'patriotism 101' that patriotism is not taught in American schools. To say that it isn't is naive, disingenous or plain stupid.

 

[jimlintott]

Why should schools teach tolerance?

Schools teach all sorts of social norms. How to line up. How to wait your turn. How to get along with others. With teasing and bullying reaching almost epidemic proportions tolerance for others should be given a beter priority.

I agree with Upchurch that parents should teach their children values. Unfortunately, homophobia, racism, and intolerance are values that parents frequently teach children. As a society we have recognised that some of these values are not productive. If all parents taught worthwhile values we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Part of education is how to live in society. Schools certainly have a role (if not an obligation) here.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Why should schools teach tolerance?

Schools teach all sorts of social norms. How to line up. How to wait your turn. How to get along with others. With teasing and bullying reaching almost epidemic proportions tolerance for others should be given a beter priority.

I agree with Upchurch that parents should teach their children values. Unfortunately, homophobia, racism, and intolerance are values that parents frequently teach children. As a society we have recognised that some of these values are not productive. If all parents taught worthwhile values we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Part of education is how to live in society. Schools certainly have a role (if not an obligation) here.

So how do you propose to make society a better place? Wait for everyone to become enlightened all on their own?

 

[Sundog]

I don't see how telling someone they are wasting my time is calling them names. Especially if that someone is wasting my time. I also don't see how teaching tolerance of homosexuality is indoctrinational. Even if it were, there are some doctrines taught in schols. You cannot tell me that just because there isn't a class called 'patriotism 101' that patriotism is not taught in American schools. To say that it isn't is naive, disingenous or plain stupid.

I will repeat, and I will repeat it again until you learn: your argument is not strengthened by calling people names.

Allow me to be pithy for a moment, as you deserve it now.

1. Learn to spell "disingenuous" before using the word.

2. What adjective would you apply to someone who lived on the other side of the planet from you, and yet insisted that he knew what was going on there better than you? Shall I share some of my ignorance of Australian schools with you?

3. Patriotism is not taught in American schools, not in any way, shape or form, whatever you might think.

Do you not see that teaching people what opinions are Correct To Have is inherently a very dangerous thing?

 

[ZeeGerman]

Zee...

That picture is not work-safe. Please replace it or get rid of it.

MattJ

Matt, I changed the picture into a link, no problem

But please - explain to me what exactly is it in the picture that makes it unsafe?

Two GUYS?
French Kiss?
The more than horizontal somethings well covered by cloth?
Combinations of the above?


Just curious really,

Zee

 

[Mr Manifesto]

I will repeat, and I will repeat it again until you learn: your argument is not strengthened by calling people names.

I was saying the argument was stupid, disingenuous or naive not you.

Allow me to be pithy for a moment, as you deserve it now.

1. Learn to spell "disingenuous" before using the word.

2. What adjective would you apply to someone who lived on the other side of the planet from you, and yet insisted that he knew what was going on there better than you? Shall I share some of my ignorance of Australian schools with you?

What does this have to do with the issue of teaching tolerance in schools?

3. Patriotism is not taught in American schools, not in any way, shape or form, whatever you might think.

The national anthem isn't sung? Soldiers aren't revered on Rememberance day? Schools don't observe Presidents' Day?

Do you not see that teaching people what opinions are Correct To Have is inherently a very dangerous thing?

'Opinion' would be 'it is good to be homosexual and everyone should try it at least once'. This issue we are looking at is teaching tolerance of homosexuality in schools. That is different. If the issue were about whether children should play with matches I wonder would you be so vehement in your opinion?

 

[Tony]

Why should schools teach tolerance?

Schools teach all sorts of social norms. How to line up. How to wait your turn. How to get along with others. With teasing and bullying reaching almost epidemic proportions tolerance for others should be given a beter priority.

I agree with Upchurch that parents should teach their children values. Unfortunately, homophobia, racism, and intolerance are values that parents frequently teach children. As a society we have recognised that some of these values are not productive. If all parents taught worthwhile values we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Part of education is how to live in society. Schools certainly have a role (if not an obligation) here.

I disagree, "teaching tolerance" is teaching kids to repress their thoughts and feelings.

 

[Upchurch]

Religion is one of the things best left to the family. There are too many different religions to be taught in schools. What should be taught in schools is the toleration of other religions -for a timely example- the tenents of Islam and how they aren't wild-eyed fanatics.

But what about those religions that view other religions as evil or whatever and view tolorance of such as against there religion? Like say, fundamentalist muslims or babtists?

 

[pgwenthold]

3. Patriotism is not taught in American schools, not in any way, shape or form, whatever you might think.

While I don't disagree with your conclusions, I would like to see more about this.

Are you saying that teaching 2nd graders about Abraham Lincoln and George Washington and having them make cut-out pictures and Lincoln stove-top hats isn't effectively teaching patriotism?

You don't think it is taught with national pride, and is just taught as history?

Are they not called "great americans," thus placing a value judgement on what it takes to be a great american?

When I was growing up, President's day was the time in art class where we did a lot of red/white/blue projects.

 

[Sundog]

While I don't disagree with your conclusions, I would like to see more about this.

Are you saying that teaching 2nd graders about Abraham Lincoln and George Washington and having them make cut-out pictures and Lincoln stove-top hats isn't effectively teaching patriotism?

You don't think it is taught with national pride, and is just taught as history?

Are they not called "great americans," thus placing a value judgement on what it takes to be a great american?

When I was growing up, President's day was the time in art class where we did a lot of red/white/blue projects.

I concede the point. I was thinking more on the level of high-school classes.

 

[Sundog]

I was saying the argument was stupid, disingenuous or naive not you.



No. Opinions don't "say" anything.




Roll your eyes all you like. If you're going to insult me with a big word, spell it right or I'll call you on it. People who cannot truly aspire to a good vocabulary shouldn't use words they haven't mastered.


What does this have to do with the issue of teaching tolerance in schools?



Don't change the subject. As you well know, this was in reference to your assertion that you know better than I what takes place in an American school.



The national anthem isn't sung? Soldiers aren't revered on Rememberance day? Schools don't observe Presidents' Day?



Is this the superficial level at which you would like to see "tolerance" taught? If not, false argument.



'Opinion' would be 'it is good to be homosexual and everyone should try it at least once'. This issue we are looking at is teaching tolerance of homosexuality in schools. That is different. If the issue were about whether children should play with matches I wonder would you be so vehement in your opinion?

'Tolerance' is 'we should respect anyone's choice of sexuality'. What you propose was more along the lines of "Homosexuality is a lifestyle equal to and just as valid as heterosexuality." With all due respect, that's an opinion.

 

[jimlintott]

I disagree, "teaching tolerance" is teaching kids to repress their thoughts and feelings.

What?

So some kid beats my son to within an inch of his life and claims "hey, gays make me feel angry." This is OK? We wouldn't want to make him feel bad. The reality is that sometimes we have to behave in a way that is contrary to our feelings.

I'm atheist but I will still enter a church for a wedding or funeral. I certainly stifle my desire to debate the priest (minister or whatever) about theology.

Some of our thoughts and feelings are wrong. This is the whole idea behind disciplining children. "I think I feel like eating a whole bag of cookies, but Daddy will get angry and punish me somehow."

Why shouldn't tolerance be taught (encouraged) in school?

In my opinion patriotism is almost the opposite of tolerance and should not be taught. There seems to be a fine line between pride and thinking you're better than everyone else.

 

[ssibal]

What a concept....

How about teaching children in school real subjects (math, reading, science, history,.....etc) instead of someones idea of what is right or wrong?

 

[Nitpick]

Originally posted by Tony
I disagree, "teaching tolerance" is teaching kids to repress their thoughts and feelings.

Please enlighten me:
What exactly are the thoughts and feelings someone will have to repress in order to be tolerant?
And are you sure those thoughts and feelings are worth to be saved from repression? Really?
Even if they are the thoughts and feelings of some fanatic who hates you/your race/your beliefs/your country for no reason you or any reasonable person will ever be able to understand?

-----------

dictionary.com:

tol·er·ance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tlr-ns)
n.
1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
.............

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Re: What a concept....

How about teaching children in school real subjects (math, reading, science, history,.....etc) instead of someones idea of what is right or wrong?

You can do it with math, you can do it with reading, you might just be able to do it with science, but how are you going to teach history without getting into what someone thinks is right or wrong? History is very much the interpretation of the teller. You are living in a fool's paradise if you think that education is not a moral minefield.