serial numbers?

[Bell]

Your two earlier questions were not too difficult. I did my best to answer them directly and logically. I've tried to define my terms and lay out a logical response.

If you are trying to make a point with your question please make it directly.

Otherwise I will continue to maintain that the mythical "people" in your question cannot "tell" anything about the plane or the act of it "crashing."

Or, if it is easier for you, maybe you could make your point by answering this question: How can people tell that a UFO has crashed?

They realize that by answering such questions, they put themselfs with their backs against the wall. The solution is dodging and/or running away.

Or just answer a very simple question.

 

[Nevermore]

Hey Nevermore, why don't you file an FOIA and see if they have compiled a parts list?

I have looked into doing that and haven't had time to follow through. I will as soon as possible.

 

[Nevermore]

By reading the NTSB report and matching up serial numbers?
I give up. How?

I have no idea. I don't believe in extraterrestrial visits or UFO landings. I'm just trying to guess how Gravy wants me to answer his question.

Apparently the answer has nothing to do with evidence. I proposed earlier:

If you provide a location and date I can try to do the work for you and confirm your story via investigation (news accounts, witness statements, incident reports) and corroboration using common sense, logic and skepticism as a filter to try to validate your account.

But this was rejected.

I guess the answer has something to do with arcane knowledge only he is in possesion of. I look forward to the point in time when he chooses to bless me with his pearls of infinite wisdom.

 

[Hellbound]

Nevermore:

Actually, his question rests on the basic idea of what evidence consists of.

Don't imagine a specific airplane crash. Don't imagine your current situation. Let's assume you are in charge of all investigations of everything. You get a report of an airplane crash. No one saw it. How do you tell that a plan crashed?

 

[Nevermore]

I would go to the place it was reported to have crashed and look for physical evidence of a crash.

 

[Gravy]

I would go to the place it was reported to have crashed and look for physical evidence of a crash.

Phew! I was almost out of ways to simplify the problem. That is, indeed, how we know a plane crashed two blocks from my house.

From the plane wreckage.

 

[Nevermore]

You said in the first iteration of your question that a plane "once" crashed near your home. I mistakenly made the assumption that the plane wreckage had since been removed and was no longer available for inspection (like the parts for Flight 77). Hence my reliance on secondary evidence:

If you provide a location and date I can try to do the work for you and confirm your story via investigation (news accounts, witness statements, incident reports) and corroboration using common sense, logic and skepticism as a filter to try to validate your account.

If the wreckage were still there I agree that examining it would be the most valuable data one could collect to determine what happened.

I thought I made this clear when I said:

While using an exemplar vehicle is certainly one way to investigate an incident I believe the best way to determine actual cause is to examine the wreckage of the vehicle that was actually involved.

 

[Gravy]

I thought I made this clear when I said:

While using an exemplar vehicle is certainly one way to investigate an incident I believe the best way to determine actual cause is to examine the wreckage of the vehicle that was actually involved.

And what were you talking about? Wanting to examine the cockpit doors of the four demolished planes for signs of forced entry, for crying out loud.

 

[Nevermore]

I was offering that as an off-the-cuff example of why a reconstruction might be considered important enough to perform.

Since I am not an accident investigator nor do I have any first hand knowlege of the airplane parts recovered I have no idea what valuable information a reconstruction might provide.

However, as tax-payer with a pulse (obviously not a brain in your opinion) when I read that an FBI spokesman claims they "have recovered a large part of the debris, making possible a nearly complete reconstitution of the wreck of the Boeing" I ask myself how much of my tax dollars spent on the investigation of 9-11 went into this reconstruction and what they learned. When I poke around and can't find any news articles, reports or further statements from the FBI about this matter I find it curious.

As a citizen, it is my opinion that the FBI should release some kind of report that says (at a minimum) they matched all of the serial numbers found on wreckage from the Pentagon to Flight 77 and after a careful examination decided that a reconstruction would not yield any valuable information about this incident.

Is that too much to ask?

 

[lylfyl]

Did they check the serial numbers on the parts of the cessna which flew into the apartments in ny recently.... ?

Show me video footage of this alleged plane.

How convenient that it had no flight recorders.

Rumor has it one of the tenants smelled cordite right before the "plane crash."

Did you know that the apartment building is owned by someone with ties to Israel?

More importantly, one of the apartments crashed into belonged to the same woman who was injured by a balloon in the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade in 1997. http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/461342p-388059c.html

Two aerial assaults on this woman. What does she know that They don't want her to tell?

Date of Manhattan plane crash. 10 / 11 /06
If you rotate it 180 degrees, 9(0)/ 11 / 01

Coincidence?

 

[Gravy]

I was offering that as an off-the-cuff example of why a reconstruction might be considered important enough to perform.

Since I am not an accident investigator nor do I have any first hand knowlege of the airplane parts recovered I have no idea what valuable information a reconstruction might provide.

However, as tax-payer with a pulse (obviously not a brain in your opinion) when I read that an FBI spokesman claims they "have recovered a large part of the debris, making possible a nearly complete reconstitution of the wreck of the Boeing" I ask myself how much of my tax dollars spent on the investigation of 9-11 went into this reconstruction and what they learned. When I poke around and can't find any news articles, reports or further statements from the FBI about this matter I find it curious.

As a citizen, it is my opinion that the FBI should release some kind of report that says (at a minimum) they matched all of the serial numbers found on wreckage from the Pentagon to Flight 77 and after a careful examination decided that a reconstruction would not yield any valuable information about this incident.

Is that too much to ask?

Unless you have evidence of some other plane hitting the Pentagon, Nevermore, yes, that is far too much to ask, because it is completely unnecessary and has nothing to do with why flight 77 crashed.

(As a personal favor, can you use a larger font?)

 

[Nevermore]

Sorry about the font. As I cut and paste it's been mixing font styles and sizes. I've been adjusting to Ariel 1 and that looked ok at work but I see here at home that it is miniscule. I'll adjust to 2 or 3 in the future.

 

[Hutch]

I work mostly with helicopters, not aircraft, but I think the supply and support are similar enough to make a couple of points here (pardon if others have already covered them, I read the thread quickly).

1. You have TWO numbers to consider, (1) The Part Number, which merely identifies the item as a flangle, widget, or offog or some other specific part, the Part Number often also tells you who the manufacturer is. (2) The Serial Number, which defines the specific part itself, so you may have 100,000 Part Number HS1001-5 in circulation, but only one has the Serial Number B100775.

2. Not all serial numbers are recorded for each aircraft. If the part is fairly common or line replacable (something that gets changed on a regular basis or at certain inspection periods) and is not involved in flight safety, the serial number is probably not recorded. If the Item is a Flight Safety Part (say, the Engine Hot Section or Radar Altimeter, for example), then there will be a record.

But I doubt every tiny part that goes into the plane is recorded somewhere. Major Items and Flight Safety items are the ones that are tracked. Were some found at the crash sites and could still be identified? I do not know.

 

[apathoid]

I work mostly with helicopters, not aircraft, but I think the supply and support are similar enough to make a couple of points here (pardon if others have already covered them, I read the thread quickly).

1. You have TWO numbers to consider, (1) The Part Number, which merely identifies the item as a flangle, widget, or offog or some other specific part, the Part Number often also tells you who the manufacturer is. (2) The Serial Number, which defines the specific part itself, so you may have 100,000 Part Number HS1001-5 in circulation, but only one has the Serial Number B100775.

2. Not all serial numbers are recorded for each aircraft. If the part is fairly common or line replacable (something that gets changed on a regular basis or at certain inspection periods) and is not involved in flight safety, the serial number is probably not recorded. If the Item is a Flight Safety Part (say, the Engine Hot Section or Radar Altimeter, for example), then there will be a record.

But I doubt every tiny part that goes into the plane is recorded somewhere. Major Items and Flight Safety items are the ones that are tracked. Were some found at the crash sites and could still be identified? I do not know.

Pretty much. But, the FAA is big on proper work documetation. And everything accomplished on the airplane must be documented. If you see an access panel that has a few missing/stripped screws - you have to make a logbook entry, or have inspection issue a non-routine work card before you can do the work. Absolutely nothing is to be done "off the books". I thought the military was anal about work procedures, but the airlines/FAA is 10 times worse.
Believe it or not, even if you remove/install a non-airworthiness, non-inspection item - the part number and serial numbers are recorded in the logbook. If you dont record them, you'll surely be called by a work center guy/gal and asked what the numbers were and why you didnt record them.

Eventually, every log write-up and corrective action is recorded in a computer database and the original log entries are stored in filing cabinets. Also, all parts that are repairable(airworthy or not) are tracked and their histories are recorded electronically and on file, kinda like the aircrafts log history. I spend alot of my work day reading up on the history of the parts I get, as well as the log history of the ship they came from before starting work. Alot of times, you can tell mechanics are just shotgunning and that your part is probably gonna be a "check and roll".

One thing that was brought up earlier in the thread was whether or not the serial numbers are matched in "normal" accident investigations. I seriously doubt it. But I think there would special cases, like where parts deemed important to the cause of the crash would be inspected and the work procedures/documentation investigated.
I mean, seriously, very few people have any idea how many serialized parts there are on airliners - easily thousands, maybe tens of thousands. Making matches to every part found would be silly and a waste of time. In the case of AA77, there was simply no need to make any serial number matches.

 

[eeyore1954]

I was offering that as an off-the-cuff example of why a reconstruction might be considered important enough to perform.

Since I am not an accident investigator nor do I have any first hand knowlege of the airplane parts recovered I have no idea what valuable information a reconstruction might provide.

However, as tax-payer with a pulse (obviously not a brain in your opinion) when I read that an FBI spokesman claims they "have recovered a large part of the debris, making possible a nearly complete reconstitution of the wreck of the Boeing" I ask myself how much of my tax dollars spent on the investigation of 9-11 went into this reconstruction and what they learned. When I poke around and can't find any news articles, reports or further statements from the FBI about this matter I find it curious.

As a citizen, it is my opinion that the FBI should release some kind of report that says (at a minimum) they matched all of the serial numbers found on wreckage from the Pentagon to Flight 77 and after a careful examination decided that a reconstruction would not yield any valuable information about this incident.

Is that too much to ask?

I would like to find that quote about the reconstruction. But anyway they did large reconstructions of Flight 800 and the Lockerbee crash in order to try to determine the cause of the crashes not to prove what planes they were.