serial numbers?

[Lothian]

i must be a total loon..

As I said acceptance is a start.

Once you get help you should be able to know when you are mixing reality with your fantasy and you will know which of you opinions are justifiable and which are stupid.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

As I said acceptance is a start.

Once you get help you should be able to know when you are mixing reality with your fantasy and you will know which of you opinions are justifiable and which are stupid.

ok, i just called and made an opointment to check myself into an insane asylum, i told the lady over the phone that i think the government is liying, and she said i should come check myself in asap, cause she even told me herself that the guvmint never lies...... so i need to get ready to go.

 

[Lothian]

ok, i just called and made an opointment to check myself into an insane asylum, i told the lady over the phone that i think the government is liying, and she said i should come check myself in asap, cause she even told me herself that the guvmint never lies...... so i need to get ready to go.

Ok, hope it goes well for you.

 

[DavidJames]

ok, i just called and made an opointment to check myself into an insane asylum, i told the lady over the phone that i think the government is liying, and she said i should come check myself in asap, cause she even told me herself that the guvmint never lies...... so i need to get ready to go.

I don't think you're insane, but you are in dire need of basic debating skills along with a primer on logical fallacies.

 

[Nevermore]

I haven't been able to find a direct source of this information, but 911-strike.com summarizes the following quote from FBI spokesman Chris Murray.

...the French agency Digipress stated that FBI authorities had told them (in Meyssan's words) that FBI agents "have recovered a large part of the debris, making possible a nearly complete reconstitution of the wreck of the Boeing", and FBI spokesman Chris Murray told the French paper Liberation that "The pieces of the plane are stocked in a warehouse and they are marked with the serial numbers of flight 77."

One would think that the prosecutor of the case against Zacarias Moussaoui would present an index of these parts or maybe a photo of the reconstruction effort being conducted in the warehouse. Unless I'm missing something, the list only contains images taken at the Pentagon (exhibit list).

In the "Russell Pickering is coming" thread, Russell said the following:

Since the NTSB was overridden by the FBI in a jurisdictional ruling known as PDD-39 http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd39.htm there are no official crash investigations on any of the four aircraft.

The NTSB said:

""Please note: information regarding the investigation into the events of September 11, 2001 will be released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is the lead investigative agency. The Safety Board is providing technical assistance to the FBI, as described in the September 13 Press Advisory." http://www.ntsb.gov/events/major.htm

If you want to see the ultimate joke just look here at the Pentagon report yourself http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/aa77/77.htm . 11 words, two numerical identifiers, 2 times, 6 pictures and 5 names. That's it. I have talked extensively with the NTSB and more than once have been through the phone banks at the FBI. I was refused in person meetings by both while in DC.

In my opinion, if the FBI has conducted a complete and thorough crash investigation and reconstruction with the technical assistance of the NTSB it seems legitimate for citizens to ask for and receive more information about the details of their findings.

Has there ever been another instance of a catastrophic incident involving an airplane where the NTSB hasn't published a report?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I haven't been able to find a direct source of this information, but 911-strike.com summarizes the following quote from FBI spokesman Chris Murray.



One would think that the prosecutor of the case against Zacarias Moussaoui would present an index of these parts or maybe a photo of the reconstruction effort being conducted in the warehouse. Unless I'm missing something, the list only contains images taken at the Pentagon (exhibit list).

If the prosecution didn't feel it was necessary to make the case, then why wouldn't present it.
In the "Russell Pickering is coming" thread, Russell said the following:

In my opinion, if the FBI has conducted a complete and thorough crash investigation and reconstruction with the technical assistance of the NTSB it seems legitimate for citizens to ask for and receive more information about the details of their findings.

Has there ever been another instance of a catastrophic incident involving an airplane where the NTSB hasn't published a report?

[/SIZE]

The NTSB does not publish reports on criminal acts, only accidents.

 

[kevin]

Well, why not have some fun with it. Here's an actual serial number from one of the 767s in New York. Tell them it's from the Left-Hand Skyhook.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/87904536f5781476d.jpg[/qimg]
​

duh, the -2 clearly indicates a foot operated skyhook, not the left-handed model. Jeez.​

 

[Gravy]

im a skeptic, and i dont buy it, doesnt make me insane.

What does ignoring all the evidence make you?

That's a serious question, by the way.

Here's a quiz for you. I've asked this of many CTs and only one has answered. I hope you'll have the courage to be the second.

An airliner once crashed two blocks from my home. There are no photos or videos of it crashing. How do we know it crashed?

 

[Gravy]

Sometimes governments lie.

Therefore, no airliner crashed two blocks from my home.

Do I have that correct, rearnaked?

 

[Gravy]

One would think that the prosecutor of the case against Zacarias Moussaoui would present an index of these parts or maybe a photo of the reconstruction effort being conducted in the warehouse.

Can you name a crime involving the destruction of an airliner, anywhere in the world, that resulted in a law enforcement agency's releasing an index of the parts recovered?

Why in the world would a reconstruction be done? That's done to determine the cause of air crashes. We know why the four planes on 9/11 crashed.

 

[FramerDave]

from your mouth...

oh, ok, by all means, i am now legally insane, free to comit any crime, with a get out of jail free card..

Insane, or just raving stupid. The two, however, are not mutually exclusive.



Apologies to the mods for the gratuitous insult. Low-hanging fruit and all that...

 

[Nevermore]

... An airliner once crashed two blocks from my home. There are no photos or videos of it crashing. How do we know it crashed?

Did the NTSB conduct an investigation and release its findings?

 

[Gravy]

Did the NTSB conduct an investigation and release its findings?

If you'd like to answer the question, please do. How do we know the plane crashed two blocks from my home?

This is not a trick question.

 

[Nevermore]

Can you name a crime involving the destruction of an airliner, anywhere in the world, that resulted in a law enforcement agency's releasing an index of the parts recovered?

Why in the world would a reconstruction be done? That's done to determine the cause of air crashes. We know why the four planes on 9/11 crashed.

The investigation (link to Wikepida) of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie Scotland?

Why should any incident be investigated? I think this summary from the Canadian Center for Occupational Health and Safety could be applied to its U.S. counterpart:

The term "accident" can be defined as an unplanned event that interrupts the completion of an activity, and that may (or may not) include injury or property damage.
An incident usually refers to an unexpected event that did not cause injury or damage this time but had the potential. "Near miss" or "dangerous occurrence" are also terms for an event that could have caused harm but did not.
Reasons to investigate a workplace accident include:

• 
  [*]most importantly, to find out the cause of accidents and to prevent similar accidents in the future
  [*]to fulfill any legal requirements
  [*]to determine the cost of an accident
  [*]to determine compliance with applicable safety regulations
  [*]to process workers' compensation claims

Incidents that involve no injury or property damage should still be investigated to determine the hazards that should be corrected. The same principles apply to a quick inquiry of a minor incident and to the more formal investigation of a serious event.

Would a reconstruction help determine how hijackers broke into the cockpit and siezed control of the plane? Could it help determine how much fuel was spilled during the crash and how much of an environmental clean-up was necessary? Could an investigation provide details which could help prevent a similar incident in the future or reduce the loss of life?

 

[Gravy]

The investigation (link to Wikepida) of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie Scotland?

Why should any incident be investigated? I think this summary from the Canadian Center for Occupational Health and Safety could be applied to its U.S. counterpart:



Would a reconstruction help determine how hijackers broke into the cockpit and siezed control of the plane? Could it help determine how much fuel was spilled during the crash and how much of an environmental clean-up was necessary? Could an investigation provide details which could help prevent a similar incident in the future or reduce the loss of life?

If you'd like to answer any of my questions, feel free to do so.

Would a reconstruction help determine how hijackers broke into the cockpit and siezed control of the plane?

Answer your own question. How would a reconstruction help determine that. Do you know that there are actually intact planes of the same models sitting out there on the tarmac? It's true!

You think the planes should have been reconstructed to determine how much fuel may have wound up on the ground?

Do explain. Also, do you live in the U.S.?

 

[Nevermore]

If you'd like to answer the question, please do. How do we know the plane crashed two blocks from my home?

This is not a trick question.

Sure.

Please provide the city you live in and the date of the crash. I'll try to find an NTSB report of the accident.

For example, here is a report (a bit garbled since the PDF isn't working and this is a HTML version) of a crash in Hopewell Township, PA on 09/08/1994:

Link to report

 

[Gravy]

Sure.

Please provide the city you live in and the date of the crash. I'll try to find an NTSB report of the accident.

I'll try again. A plane crashed two blocks from my home. There are no photos or videos of the plane crashing. How do we know it crashed?

This is not a trick question. Please answer it to the best of your ability.

 

[Nevermore]

If you'd like to answer any of my questions, feel free to do so.

Answer your own question. How would a reconstruction help determine that. Do you know that there are actually intact planes of the same models sitting out there on the tarmac? It's true!

You think the planes should have been reconstructed to determine how much fuel may have wound up on the ground?

Do explain. Also, do you live in the U.S.?

You asked for " ... a crime involving the destruction of an airliner, anywhere in the world, that resulted in a law enforcement agency's releasing an index of the parts recovered?" My response was the investigation into the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie Scotland. How is this not an answer to your question?

While using an exemplar vehicle is certainly one way to investigate an incident I believe the best way to determine actual cause is to examine the wreckage of the vehicle that was actually involved. Conducting a test on the force necessary to open a locked cockpit door on a similar plane is a viable experiment. Finding the actual cockpit door in the wreckage and looking for evidence of forced entry or how it was circumvented is more valuable.

I'm rather certain that in any plane crash there is an environmental impact. Based on my understanding of EPA guidelines a study would need to be performed to determine the amount of clean-up necessary. If fuel began spilling from the plane after it struck the lightpoles then the amount of soil contaminated with jet fuel and therefore requiring clean-up efforts would be expanded beyond the impact site itself.

Lastly, I do live in the U.S. I was looking for a similar synopsis on the U.S. OSHA website and did not find anything as concise.

 

[Nevermore]

I'll try again. A plane crashed two blocks from my home. There are no photos or videos of the plane crashing. How do we know it crashed?

This is not a trick question. Please answer it to the best of your ability.

I'm a skeptic. I can do nothing but doubt your story until you provide evidence confirming what happened.

If you provide a location and date I can try to do the work for you and confirm your story via investigation (news accounts, witness statements, incident reports) and corroboration using common sense, logic and skepticism as a filter to try to validate your account. Otherwise, your claim may as well be "I saw a ghost two blocks from my home."

I do not know that you exist, where you exist, that the plane you claim crashed existed or, if it did in fact exist, that it crashed on the date or in the location you claim. The onus is on you to prove otherwise if I'm to believe your story.

 

[Gravy]

I'm a skeptic. I can do nothing but doubt your story until you provide evidence confirming what happened.

If you provide a location and date I can try to do the work for you and confirm your story via investigation (news accounts, witness statements, incident reports) and corroboration using common sense, logic and skepticism as a filter to try to validate your account. Otherwise, your claim may as well be "I saw a ghost two blocks from my home."

I do not know that you exist, where you exist, that the plane you claim crashed existed or, if it did in fact exist, that it crashed on the date or in the location you claim. The onus is on you to prove otherwise if I'm to believe your story.

I'll make it really simple for you.

A plane crashes. There are no photos or videos of it crashing. How do people know it crashed?

You're up, Nevermore.