Serena Williams' comments on rape victim

[iknownothing]

If I understand the parallel, you are saying that Williams was not furious at the rapists? That she supports rape somehow or other?

She certainly didn't express any fury at the rapists. So I wouldn't make any assumptions about what she feels. And while I'm sure she doesn't support anything she thinks of as 'rape', her comments don't sound like she's convinced it was rape:

Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know. I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don't take drinks from other people. She's 16, why was she that drunk where she doesn't remember? It could have been much worse. She's lucky. Obviously, I don't know, maybe she wasn't a virgin, but she shouldn't have put herself in that position, unless they slipped her something, then that's different."

Doesn't sound like she is furious at them. At the least, she only has criticism for the girl, unless the boys slipped her something. She has doubts about whether the boys involved were treated fairly; like maybe the legal system came down too hard on them. But the girl, she's "lucky".


There's plenty of room for warning kids about the dangers of binge drinking. But you've got to do that without taking any of the blame off of the rapists. She failed to do that.


Celebrities in general would be a lot smarter to keep their mouths shut about topics not related to their career. She had no need to start speculating on the culpability (and virginity!) of a rape victim.

 

[Ferguson]

Teens binge drink? Shocking. They all deserve what's coming to them.

The most abused word in the strawman-burner's dictionary.

 

[Natan]

I think that you have to read the entire quote to understand why it upset so many people.
It hasn't been posted yet, so here it is:

"Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know.

Oops, didn't pay attention to that part. That is pretty stupid, they already got the minimum sentence possible.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

There are several red flags in there for me.
The first is that, contrary to what some on this thread have said, she doesn't seem to be disgusted by the actions of the boys involved.

Thanks for posting the whole quote, like many I was going by what was on this thread and having the rest does add context. Referring to rape as 'doing something stupid is undefendable, what they did was a horrible, criminal act for which they should do hard time. There is no excuse for trivialising it in that way.

The second is her use of the phrase, "I'm not blaming the girl, but".
Anyone that says, "I'm not an A, but", or, "I'm not saying B, but", almost always immediately follows up with something that appears to contradict that statement.

You're often right about this but it's a good guideline rather than a rule and there are enough reasons to say that getting that drunk is a stupid thing to do that I don't think it does count as victim blaming in and of itself.

The third is her mention of the girl's virginity or lack of it.
What relevance did that have to the situation?

Absolutely. I think it's pretty obvious what the inference was supposed to be, and it's irrelevant and insulting.

Fourth and last is her statement it would've been different if they'd have slipped her something.
Why would it? She was still in a position where she couldn't consent to what happened, either way.
It's only different if you think that her getting drunk was enough of a contributing factor that she should shoulder some of the blame.

It wouldn't be different in terms of the rape itself (other than being a clear indication of premeditation on behalf of the perpetrator), but it would effect the advice people might give in reference to it, there is a big difference between 'beware of actively putting yourself in dangerous (for a number of reasons) situations' and 'beware of active predators in innocuous ones'. I think the blame rests entirely on the shoulders of those who raped her, but I also think she made a serious error in judgement getting so drunk.

 

[Xulld]

1)Locking your doors when you leave your house: sensible advice that acknowledges thieves exist in the world without placing any blame.
2)Avoiding becoming intoxicated to the point of being unable to protect yourself: Offensive advice that somehow blames the victim.

I cannot for the life of me understand the nonsense that leads anyone to agree with the second sentence. Good advice is good advice, placing blame is placing blame.

I read nothing in her comments that placed any blame. Her advice was good.

very tactless and would have been better phrased differently or left unsaid.

Political correctness: allowing people to feel outraged about reality encroaching on their imaginary utopia.

I agree, tactless in the sense that reality cares not how you feel about it. Good advice from your parents ought to be just as tactless. I can understand when someone not your parents does something like this you may feel patronized. My advice . . get over it, reality doesn't care.

 

[applecorped]

1)Locking your doors when you leave your house: sensible advice that acknowledges thieves exist in the world without placing any blame.
2)Avoiding becoming intoxicated to the point of being unable to protect yourself: Offensive advice that somehow blames the victim.

I cannot for the life of me understand the nonsense that leads anyone to agree with the second sentence. Good advice is good advice, placing blame is placing blame.

I read nothing in her comments that placed any blame. Her advice was good.

Political correctness: allowing people to feel outraged about reality encroaching on their imaginary utopia.

I agree, tactless in the sense that reality cares not how you feel about it. Good advice from your parents ought to be just as tactless. I can understand when someone not your parents does something like this you may feel patronized. My advice . . get over it, reality doesn't care.

So if left your back door unlocked and someone came in and raped you it would
Be appropriate to tell you, "Well, you should have locked your door".

 

[Piscivore]

Seconded.

I can't believe this is so difficult for some people to understand.

One word: context.

Had the girl been hit by a drunk driver, everyone would've been outraged at the drunk driver. They wouldn't have started looking for things she could've done differently or scolded her for drinking too much or not crossing the road away from a zebra crossing or for wearing dark clothing or for reezing when she saw the speeding car bearing down on her instead of trying to jump away; they would've been furious at the drunk driver.

Drunk drivers do not prowl the streets looking for jaywalkers to victimize.

Like you say; context.

 

[Natan]

So if left your back door unlocked and someone came in and raped you it would
Be appropriate to tell you, "Well, you should have locked your door".

It might be insensitive, but next time you will lock the door. I got robbed after I strongly suspect my wife not properly closing (not even not locking) the door after coming home late on Halloween.

 

[Piscivore]

So if left your back door unlocked and someone came in and raped you it would
Be appropriate to tell you, "Well, you should have locked your door".

No, but it would be to say "not locking your door when there is a rapist running around isn't a good idea."

 

[Giz]

So if left your back door unlocked and someone came in and raped you it would
Be appropriate to tell you, "Well, you should have locked your door".

It would be hugely insensitive.

However, if one were to give advice to other people on how to be safe in their home, perhaps "lock your door" might be a good point to bring up?


It should be possible to mention risk-reduction strategies. You just need to remember two simple rules:

1) Do not imply that not following those strategies would imply any shared moral culpability
2) Try not to be hugely insensitive to the person who just got victimized, or appear to be minimizing their suffering

Serena Williams was extremely clumsy about both of these points. However, it should be possible (and is important to) mention the risk-reduction strategies.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I can't stand that. Either don't apologize, or actually apologize. A hedged apology like that is just an insulting way of saying "I'm sorry this has damaged my public image."

I was about to make a similar post.

I'm getting so sick of these sorts of fake apologies that are brought about by bullying by the media and the public. Not necessarily saying this applies to this particular case, but there are so many others. For example, the guys on the 49ers who thought homosexuality was wrong. It is almost as if it has become a sort of thought crime to go against any of the mainstream (liberal) media viewpoints.

I personally have nothing against homosexuals, but would much rather live in a world where those who do were allowed to say so without getting bullied by battalions of phonily outraged thought police.

 

[Xulld]

So if left your back door unlocked and someone came in and raped you it would
Be appropriate to tell you, "Well, you should have locked your door".

It would be rational to deduce that locking my door may have prevented it.

One might assume I know that, but one might be wrong.

Again, it could be seen as patronizing, but seriously; outrage?

It would be hugely insensitive.

However, if one were to give advice to other people on how to be safe in their home, perhaps "lock your door" might be a good point to bring up?


It should be possible to mention risk-reduction strategies. You just need to remember two simple rules:

1) Do not imply that not following those strategies would imply any shared moral culpability
2) Try not to be hugely insensitive to the person who just got victimized, or appear to be minimizing their suffering

Serena Williams was extremely clumsy about both of these points. However, it should be possible (and is important to) mention the risk-reduction strategies.

. . and this is what is boils down to. No one likes to be patronized.

 

[marplots]

Would it be blaming the victim if I suggested to her she might want to use a preventive abortifacient post rape?

 

[applecorped]

Rapist- 100% responsible

Victim- 0%

Yes?

 

[Piscivore]

I personally have nothing against homosexuals, but would much rather live in a world where those who do were allowed to say so without getting bullied by battalions of phonily outraged thought police.

I agree. It's good to know who the bigots and fundies are, and if they are allowed to just say so, so much the better.

Would that all of them followed Phelps' lead.

 

[Piscivore]

Rapist- 100% responsible

Victim- 0%

Yes?

For the act of rape, yes.

For the act of putting the girl in a completely unsafe and insecure mental and physical condition and leaving herself exteremely vulnerable in a risky environment, where does that responsibility "break down"?

 

[applecorped]

For the act of rape, yes.

Good.

 

[Piscivore]

Good.

You wanna give a shot at answering the question in the second part of that?

 

[applecorped]

You wanna give a shot at answering the question in the second part of that?

Why? It has nothing to do with this thread or what i am responding to. If that particular topic interest you so much start a new thread and I'll respond there.

 

[Natan]

It has nothing to do with this thread or what i am responding to. If that particular topic interest you so much start a new thread and I'll respond there.

Errr... nope. Cop-out of the day.