Serena Williams' comments on rape victim

[marplots]

Seconded.

I can't believe this is so difficult for some people to understand.

One word: context.

Had the girl been hit by a drunk driver, everyone would've been outraged at the drunk driver. They wouldn't have started looking for things she could've done differently or scolded her for drinking too much or not crossing the road away from a zebra crossing or for wearing dark clothing or for reezing when she saw the speeding car bearing down on her instead of trying to jump away; they would've been furious at the drunk driver.

If I understand the parallel, you are saying that Williams was not furious at the rapists? That she supports rape somehow or other?

I hope you get that one can be both mad at the rapist and still advise caution so that others don't put themselves in risky situations? Wouldn't you support any advice from a celebrity that helped prevent the next rape?

 

[Babbylonian]

Don't get me wrong. I have a teenage daughter, and if she were raped or assaulted in any form, I would probably physically attack anyone who came up to me or her and said something that was not entirely sympathetic, and if some celebrity made a comment like Serena Williams did, my emotional reaction would be unfavorable.

But this is not an emotional environment here, and even in the event of such a crime against my daughter, I do not want my emotional reactions to be the cause of wrongful condemnation of others.

I didn't condemn her. People say stupid things all the time and most of them are not worthy of condemnation. However, that does not mean that the things they say are not stupid...or, more specifically in this case, insensitive and hurtful. It also doesn't mean that they're not subject to multiple interpretations (such as the uncharitable one I offered).

Yes, getting blotto is a risk factor for all kinds of trouble, but public figures - especially those doing interviews - ought to be careful not to even imply that a high-profile rape victim (high profile enough for her to talk about it, at least) is even a little bit at fault for the crime committed against her. Leave that kind of discussion for more private - or at least anonymous (such as an Innertubez forum) - arenas.

 

[Natan]

Here in Norway, female rape survivors go for an average of three years before telling anyone they've been assaulted. Three years.
I think maybe there's a reason for that.

Maybe because they fear not to be believed (in court). Small wonder if you take three years on average and all evidence is gone.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Had the girl been hit by a drunk driver, everyone would've been outraged at the drunk driver. They wouldn't have started looking for things she could've done differently or scolded her for drinking too much or not crossing the road away from a zebra crossing or for wearing dark clothing or for reezing when she saw the speeding car bearing down on her instead of trying to jump away; they would've been furious at the drunk driver.

Had some stranger had emptied their drink over her head at a party, or thrown an unprovoked punch at her out of the blue, no one would've cared what she did -- how much she had to drink, what she was wearing, or how she reacted.

If you were genuinely interested in avoiding similar future incidents, then you would definitely want to know what alternative actions they might have taken which would have reduced the likelihood of those outcomes.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Had the girl been hit by a drunk driver, everyone would've been outraged at the drunk driver. They wouldn't have started looking for things she could've done differently or scolded her for drinking too much or not crossing the road away from a zebra crossing or for wearing dark clothing or for reezing when she saw the speeding car bearing down on her instead of trying to jump away; they would've been furious at the drunk driver.

Had some stranger had emptied their drink over her head at a party, or thrown an unprovoked punch at her out of the blue, no one would've cared what she did -- how much she had to drink, what she was wearing, or how she reacted.

I'm not entirely sure that's correct, I was injured, causing a permanent disability in my my left hand by a pedestrian who deliberately climbed over a barrier in order to get off a traffic light controlled pedestrian crossing and instead run into a six lane road at in an area where major roads converged and the was absolutely no pedestrian access and then ran at me and shoulder charged me off my motorcycle as I tried to avoid him, it was suggested by a nurse at the hospital I was taken to that this was a shortcut to getting social housing, apparently she'd seen a few 'accidents' of this type. None the less I still got the 'well, if you will ride a motorcycle' type comments from many people.

If the person hit by the drunk driver in your hypothetical was also drunk, wearing dark clothes and walking down the middle of a unlit, twisty, national speed limit country road in the middle of a moonless winter night then I might consider that a contributory factor to the accident without considering it to in any way exonerate the driver for DUI.

It comes down to the perceived risk/wisdom of the activity the person has voluntarily, going out and getting so drunk that you are no longer in control is stupid behaviour for enough reasons that don't involve criminal reasons that people would question it anyway, in your other examples no-one is doing anything that would be considered unusual risk taking.

That being said, the comments made may have been true but when linked to a specific person who has been subjected to an assault this awful they were very tactless and would have been better phrased differently or left unsaid.

 

[Natan]

Whether you're raped afterwards or not, if you're sixteen (and in my opinion this goes for any age, but Jedem das Seine I suppose) you have no business drinking until you pass out.

 

[applecorped]

Whether you're raped afterwards or not, if you're sixteen (and in my opinion this goes for any age, but Jedem das Seine I suppose) you have no business drinking until you pass out.

Teens binge drink? Shocking. They all deserve what's coming to them.

 

[Natan]

The sarcasm is obvious but it really should be shocking alright. Maybe you're too cynical to see what is wrong with binge drinking.

 

[applecorped]

Irrelevant to the discussion

 

[Natan]

Irrelevant to the discussion

"I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don't take drinks from other people."​

Sure, buddy, it's irrelevant.

Maybe you can report me for a derail and I get another ridiculous infraction.

 

[lionking]

"I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don't take drinks from other people."​

Sure, buddy, it's irrelevant.

Maybe you can report me for a derail and I get another ridiculous infraction.

For a very rare time, I agree with applecorped. An amazing amount of victim blaming going on in this thread.

 

[Natan]

For a very rare time, I agree with applecorped. An amazing amount of victim blaming going on in this thread.

What part of "I'm not blaming the girl" is so hard to understand in Williams' comment. Did people not only not teach you to not take drinks from other people but they also didn't teach you basic reading comprehension?

 

[applecorped]

"I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don't take drinks from other people."​

Sure, buddy, it's irrelevant.

Maybe you can report me for a derail and I get another ridiculous infraction.

Feeling like a victim? I don't blame you.

 

[Dissolution]

I think that you have to read the entire quote to understand why it upset so many people.
It hasn't been posted yet, so here it is:

"Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know. I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don't take drinks from other people. She's 16, why was she that drunk where she doesn't remember? It could have been much worse. She's lucky. Obviously, I don't know, maybe she wasn't a virgin, but she shouldn't have put herself in that position, unless they slipped her something, then that's different."

There are several red flags in there for me.
The first is that, contrary to what some on this thread have said, she doesn't seem to be disgusted by the actions of the boys involved.

The second is her use of the phrase, "I'm not blaming the girl, but".
Anyone that says, "I'm not an A, but", or, "I'm not saying B, but", almost always immediately follows up with something that appears to contradict that statement.

The third is her mention of the girl's virginity or lack of it.
What relevance did that have to the situation?

Fourth and last is her statement it would've been different if they'd have slipped her something.
Why would it? She was still in a position where she couldn't consent to what happened, either way.
It's only different if you think that her getting drunk was enough of a contributing factor that she should shoulder some of the blame.

 

[malicus]

I think that you have to read the entire quote to understand why it upset so many people.
It hasn't been posted yet, so here it is:

"Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know. I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you: Don't take drinks from other people. She's 16, why was she that drunk where she doesn't remember? It could have been much worse. She's lucky. Obviously, I don't know, maybe she wasn't a virgin, but she shouldn't have put herself in that position, unless they slipped her something, then that's different."

There are several red flags in there for me.
The first is that, contrary to what some on this thread have said, she doesn't seem to be disgusted by the actions of the boys involved.

The second is her use of the phrase, "I'm not blaming the girl, but".
Anyone that says, "I'm not an A, but", or, "I'm not saying B, but", almost always immediately follows up with something that appears to contradict that statement.

The third is her mention of the girl's virginity or lack of it.
What relevance did that have to the situation?

Fourth and last is her statement it would've been different if they'd have slipped her something.
Why would it? She was still in a position where she couldn't consent to what happened, either way.
It's only different if you think that her getting drunk was enough of a contributing factor that she should shoulder some of the blame.

Boy, am I glad I kept my mouth shut. I'm strongly aligned with the 'people are reading to much into what she said, she was only trying to identify risk factors, not blaming the victim' camp.

Now I'm wishing she kept her mouth shut. Tactless rambling empty headed comment.

 

[Natan]

There are several red flags in there for me.

Let's see.

The first is that, contrary to what some on this thread have said, she doesn't seem to be disgusted by the actions of the boys involved.

From what do you derive that? Nothing is mentioned. You read between the lines or you're a mind reader?

The second is her use of the phrase, "I'm not blaming the girl, but".
Anyone that says, "I'm not an A, but", or, "I'm not saying B, but", almost always immediately follows up with something that appears to contradict that statement.

Either that or it indeed says what it says: I'm not saying A, but B has to be said.

The third is her mention of the girl's virginity or lack of it.
What relevance did that have to the situation?

Not so much. Although virgin girls are in nearly all societies more advised "to not to give it up so quickly" and to generally be careful of people's bad intentions.

Fourth and last is her statement it would've been different if they'd have slipped her something. Why would it?

Binge drinking until you pass out = stupid and your fault. Drinking a few beers and becoming uncoincious after someone unknowingly slipped you something = not your fault.

 

[Cayvmann]

It's one thing to offer that warning. It's another to frame that warning (particularly publicly) in a way that puts any responsibility for a specific rape on the victim.

In other words, if I'm telling my daughter it's dangerous to go out and get stinking drunk with strangers, that's one thing. On the other hand, if I go out and tell people that women who get raped while they're drunk should have known better, that's out of line. Rape victims blame themselves more than enough - often far more than is healthy - without ******** piling on.

By telling your daughter to be careful, you are indeed telling her she should now know better. Is it just wrong to say, after the fact?

I will agree that it isn't helpful, after the fact, to say to the victim. It might be something to pass on to others that certain behaviors can be risky, before they happen.

 

[Natan]

It might be something to pass on to others that certain behaviors can be risky, before they happen.

This.

And to the Norwegian guy that says no blame whatsoever is on the victim for the rape, part of the blame of the rape of the next victim by the same rapist IS on the victim if you don't report or wait three years to do it. Nothing wrong with passing on some good info to others.

 

[TheWeirdSkeptic]

This.

And to the Norwegian guy that says no blame whatsoever is on the victim for the rape, part of the blame of the rape of the next victim by the same rapist IS on the victim if you don't report or wait three years to do it. Nothing wrong with passing on some good info to others.

Well considering this girl is getting death threats, people blamed her on national television, she thought everyone would say it was her fault (and many people did), and apparently even though she asked to be tested to see if she was in fact drugged and the police didn't anyway, I can't really blame other victims for not stepping forward. When they do it just seems to throw the **** that came from the rape into the fan and make everything worst for them.

 

[Dissolution]

From what do you derive that? Nothing is mentioned. You read between the lines or you're a mind reader?

Her suggestion that their punishment was too harsh.
"Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know."

Not so much. Although virgin girls are in nearly all societies more advised "to not to give it up so quickly" and to generally be careful of people's bad intentions.

As she didn't "give it up", I don't see what relevance it has.

Binge drinking until you pass out = stupid and your fault. Drinking a few beers and becoming uncoincious after someone unknowingly slipped you something = not your fault.

Subsequently being raped after either action = not your fault.
If she wasn't drugged, which we don't know, as she doesn't appear to have been tested, then she was responsible for getting very drunk.
That doesn't make her responsible in any way for anything that was done to her while she was in that state.