Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

Tailgater said:
You understand that such a list existed, but not yet with the banks. You know that Chavez uses such tactics. If the bank knows they are on the road to being nationalized, it is in their best interest to comply now. You are in favor of the banks being nationalized. So, you are in favor of him using such lists at the banks.....in the argument with yourself, because you said using such a list would be wrong.
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No i dont know if Chavez is using such lists. there was one, but his words where pretty clear about it, and no new lists so far afaik.

the list is wrong. also with a nationalized bank it must be prevented that people get blacklisted for what ever reason that might be.

when i say that such blacklists are wrong and anti democratic then i also think the same when Chavez is using it. It is wrong. And afaik such blacklists are not used anymore.
 
WildCat said:
If you want to talk about that start a new thread.

But it's obvious you are trying to change the subject because you cannot defend Chavez honestly.
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no no, just give me a list of names of atleast a few of those who was not able to run for an office.

we dont have to talk about the US system. lets stay in Venezuela.

who are those politicans that got baned?
 
Darth Rotor said:
Thanks for confirming that. :)

But are they "your" banks if they aren't nationalized? ;)
Based on your bold statement, am I right in guessing that you are not for nationalization of banks?

Still confused here.
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eerm, no Swiss Banks are not Nationalized.

when i say our banks i mean those with the HQ in Switzerland. Swiss Banks are pretty famous / infamous worldwide. So they are proud to be swiss so i can say our banks.

I have no trouble Tax money is used to help out when they are in troubles and are Nationalized, aslong it makes sence. But you know, all those years they made billions of profit, we didnt get that profit into our taxkassa, they kept it. and they will keep theyr profit in future.

What i wanted to point out is actually simple.
Alsong they made huge profit, they did all what was legal to pay as less tax as possible. Now that they are in trouble they call for our tax money.
While they makes loses of 4 billions they still pay 12 billions of Boni for the management.

Sure would they be Nationalized banks, we oc have to pay for theyr loss with our tax money. But in all the years the bank makes profit, that profit is also belonging to us.
 
Tailgater said:
Probably Libertarian or Green. You also have the opposition within each party that is weeded out through primary elections. Most of them recieved alot of media attention. You would have to be brain dead in the US or live in Sweden not to not know most of the candidates, at least, the candidates that matter. Candidates that run for racists, 911 truth, make Texas independant, and "we all need to go back to living like the Indians" (you get the idea) are jokes and not worthy of media attention. As much as you get a woody for corrupt Americans, your out-of-bounds on this one. The two major parties cover almost all issues in the US in a wide spectrum. The primaries decide, in general, the two points Americans fall in that spectrum. The election decides which point is favored by the majority, and despite your crying about corruption, no amount of media coverage will EVER get Ralph Nader or Paris Hilton elected.
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How does the media know beofre the elections who will mather and who not?
 
Dictator Cheney said:
No i dont know if Chavez is using such lists. there was one, but his words where pretty clear about it, and no new lists so far afaik.

the list is wrong. also with a nationalized bank it must be prevented that people get blacklisted for what ever reason that might be.

when i say that such blacklists are wrong and anti democratic then i also think the same when Chavez is using it. It is wrong. And afaik such blacklists are not used anymore.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Tascón

You've acknowledged the list a few times in this thread and even stated directly that such a list is unfair.

Why do you think no one has started such a list again?

You saying that Chavez will keep his hands out of a nationalized institution because it is "wrong" even though he's already done similar things that he will probably continue to do is quite laughable.

Well, if you "afaik", then it must be so! Afaik, the local pedophile hasn't messed with any kids lately, so I'll see if he wants to babysit.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
How does the media know beofre the elections who will mather and who not?
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Common sense. That's sense and not sence. It's kind of like the ability to spell for some people. Most people who run for President already have some type of base built up that is a gauge of popularity. Of course, some nutjobs will try and overanalyse this common sense into some type of corruption, conspiracy, or general anti-US paranoia (especially when they can't stay on topic and look for the nearest dog to kick), but that's par for the course.
 
Tailgater said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Tascón

You've acknowledged the list a few times in this thread and even stated directly that such a list is unfair.

Why do you think no one has started such a list again?

You saying that Chavez will keep his hands out of a nationalized institution because it is "wrong" even though he's already done similar things that he will probably continue to do is quite laughable.

Well, if you "afaik", then it must be so! Afaik, the local pedophile hasn't messed with any kids lately, so I'll see if he wants to babysit.
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On April 16, 2005 Chávez declared the "Tascón List must be archived and buried" and continued, "I say that, because I keep receiving some letters, among the many I get, that make me think that, in some places, they still have the Tascón List on their tables to determine if somebody is going to work or not".
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thanks for the link.

where is the part about the usage of the list in the banks?
 
Dictator Cheney said:
Sure would they be Nationalized banks, we oc have to pay for theyr loss with our tax money. But in all the years the bank makes profit, that profit is also belonging to us.
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OK, got it. Not tighter regulation, nor increased reserve requirements, nationalization is your solution set, be it Switzerland or Venezuela.

Thanks. Not in agreement, but thanks anyway. Similar frustrations are felt about banks and bailout over in the US, as well. You are not alone.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
thanks for the link.

where is the part about the usage of the list in the banks?
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Funny that is the only sentence you quote. Dismiss the fact that he would have access to any archive and that others have accused his administration of political discrimination since then. I never stated the list was used by the banks, but that it has been used by the Chavez administration, and gave a reason why it would not be out of the realm of possibility for it not to have been used. your reasoning that the list could not have been used simply beacuse they are not nationalized is flawed. Nationalization of the banks gives easier access to blackball opponents and dissenters. A "pattern of behaviour" has been established by Chavez. The more industries nationalized not only enables further behaviour, but makes it increasingly harder to reverse course.
 
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Tailgater said:
Funny that is the only sentence you quote. Dismiss the fact that he would have access to any archive and that others have accused his administration of political discrimination since then. I never stated the list was used by the banks, but that it has been used by the Chavez administration, and gave a reason why it would not be out of the realm of possibility for it not to have been used. your reasoning that the list could not have been used simply beacuse they are not nationalized is flawed. Nationalization of the banks gives easier access to blackball opponents and dissenters. A "pattern of behaviour" has been established by Chavez. The more industries nationalized not only enables further behaviour, but makes it increasingly harder to reverse course.
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Now how can we know that Tascon did publish the list on request of Chavez?
and how do we know it was indeed not a list to check back if the opposition is using your name to support theyr recall referendum.

btw it is "Dictator" Chavez his Constitution that allows this recall referendum.
and also the opposition was accused in the past to use false ID's in their referendums.

most people here seem to see only what the western media is printing about him. How much Venezuela has changed in the positive way is mostly ignored.
 
Darth Rotor said:
OK, got it. Not tighter regulation, nor increased reserve requirements, nationalization is your solution set, be it Switzerland or Venezuela.

Thanks. Not in agreement, but thanks anyway. Similar frustrations are felt about banks and bailout over in the US, as well. You are not alone.
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tighter regulations will it be in the end i guess, atleast. with Nationalization of Banks im pretty alone, it will not happen in switzerland, no worrys :D

but the frustration is big sure. And still we do not really realize how deep in to the ◊◊◊◊ we are already :)
 
Tailgater said:
He's done alot for social services. The trick is not getting shot on the way.
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Dictator Chavez brought not only more and better social services. He also brought human rights, Five powers instead of three, womans rights, social justice.

i guess most forgot what kind of governments Venezuela had in the past.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
btw it is "Dictator" Chavez his Constitution that allows this recall referendum.
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Exactly. Without the new Constitution of 1999 the opposition wouldn't have had such a democratic instrument.

Let's recall how the The Bolivarian Constitution was developed. Making a clear cut with the decades of pseudo-democracy, with only a tiny minority profiting from the wealth of the country, was Chavez main promise when he first ran for president. He won the presidential election in December 1998 with 56.2%.

Chavez did what he had promised. During a period of two years, Venezuela had six national votes:

April 1999: National referendum on convening a constituent assembly to draw up a new constitution won with 71.8 per cent support.

July 1999: Election of a constituent assembly to draft a new constitution, Chávez supporters won a large majority of seats.

December 1999: Referendum on whether to adopt the new constitution, won by Chávez supporters with 71.9 per cent of the vote.

July 2000: Presidential election held under the new constitution, won by Hugo Chávez with an increased majority of 59.76 per cent of the vote.

July 2000: Election of the National Assembly, Chávez supporters won a majority of the seats

December 2000: Municipal elections with around two thirds supporting pro-Chavez parties.

You can see by the percentages, with Chavez winning less than 60% but the referenda much higher, that a lot of Venezuelans were interested and participated in the process.

The result is quite remarkable and higly democratic.

CONSTITUTION OF THE BOLIVARIAN REPUBLIC OF VENEZUELA said:
Preamble

The people of Venezuela, exercising their powers of creation and
invoking the protection of God, the historic example of our Liberator
Simon Bolivar and the heroism and sacrifice of our aboriginal ances-
tors and the forerunners and founders of a free and sovereign nation;
to the supreme end of reshaping the Republic to establish a democrat-
ic, participatory and self-reliant, multiethnic and multicultural society
in a just, federal and decentralized State that embodies the values of
freedom, independence, peace, solidarity, the common good, the
nation's territorial integrity, comity and the rule of law for this and
future generations; guarantees the right to life, work, learning, educa-
tion, social justice and equality, without discrimination or subordina-
tion of any kind; promotes peaceful cooperation among nations and
furthers and strengthens Latin American integration in accordance
with the principle of nonintervention and national self-determination
of the people, the universal and indivisible guarantee of human rights,
the democratization of imitational society, nuclear disarmament, eco-
logical balance and environmental resources as the common and
inalienable heritage of humanity; exercising their innate power
through their representatives comprising the National Constituent
Assembly, by their freely cast vote and in a democratic Referendum,
hereby ordain the following:
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Some basic indicators (venezuelan statistics):

[TABLE="head"]|ca 1998|ca 2007
Percentage of Persons in Extreme Poverty|20,6|9,4
Population with access to sewage services (%)|64|82
Population with access to drinking water (%)|80|92
Infant Mortality Rate (per thousand live births)|21,4|13,9
Beneficiary population of the school food program (million)|0,2|1,8
Gross school enrollment rate in basic education (%)|90|99
Gross school enrollment rate in secondary and professional education (%)|27|41
Gross enrollment rate in higher education (%)|21|30
Number of Pension Recipients (million)|0,4|1,1
Number of free medical operations conducted (thousand)|-|40
National Human Development Index|0,69|0,88[/TABLE]
 
why is he starting a referendum, why not use a decree, like a Dictator is suposed to do. A Dictator using tools of a direct democracy......
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It looks better this way to his followers. He just has to rig the referendum.

Btw in Germany already state owned banks are the ones that burned the most money and need the help.

Ps: Only trust the statistics you forged yourself.
 
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OlbarStein said:
It looks better this way to his followers. He just has to rig the referendum.

Btw in Germany already state owned banks are the ones that burned the most money and need the help.

Ps: Only trust the statistics you forged yourself.
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are the elections and referendums in Venezuela riged?


Afaik are there alot organisations that controll the elections in Venezuela.
while some point out some things they see as flaws, actually never they claimed to have seen rigged elections.

And why would the people in venezuela not revolt after such rigged elections?
Like it happened in Bangkok in the last few days, with succes.

Chavez brought Democracy to the Slums of Venezuela. they took the opportunity and are active involved in creating theyr Nation and lives.
The Majority of the poeple just Loves el Presidente. Because they feel represented by him, because they feel now that they are a part of Venezuela.
He chenged Venezuela so much into a direction the majority of people and especially the poor want it to.

Why do we in the West have so much trouble understanding it?

It is just laughable.

and yes sure, all the statistics are faked only those not that you belive in.

PS: Nationalisation is no protection of missmanagement.
 
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