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"SEND HER BACK!" Will they defend this?

JoeMorgue said:
Again if "All is lost, I've given up and I'm just waiting for the end" is your answer, fine, but admit it.
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I'm asking precisely what you think the alternative is.

Do you think the Democrats should adopt the strategy of the Republicans? Put party power as the end goal, freely lying to the public and obstructing the opposition even when their proposals are reasonable? What is the end goal?

If this is the strategy and if it's successful, what then? Will they govern well when in power? Or will they simply govern so as to hold onto power?

I don't regard acting on principle rather than pure interest of political power "giving up". I regard abandoning one's principles a form of surrender.
 
Belz... said:
What. Is. Your. Solution?
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I. Don't. Have. One.

But it's not my job to deal with the Republicans, it's the Democrats.

Besides what's your solution? Wait for the end? Hope the Republicans just all randomly drop dead or come down a sudden onset case of reasonableness and compassion? Why is it suddenly my job to write the Democrats battle plan and not yours?
 
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JoeMorgue said:
I. Don't. Have. One.

But it's not my job to deal with the Republicans, it's the Democrats.

Besides what's your solution? Wait for the end? Hope the Republicans just all randomly drop dead or come down a sudden onset case of reasonableness and compassion? Why is it suddenly my job to write the Democrats battle plan and not yours?
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Ah. So your point is "It is difficult to deal with the Republicans," with a dollop of condescension for others on the forum.

Yeah, good point. No one else has noticed this.
 
phiwum said:
Let's suppose that Obama's presidency is the reason Trump was elected. My wife thinks so. She thinks that Obama did not do enough for the working class, thereby setting the stage for a populist.
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What should have he done?

He inherited the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression and he set the country back on the road to recovery in spite of not being left any kind of surplus to use as stimulus and the Republicans being ridiculously obstructionist.

He made one of the biggest changes in the US health care system in history.

If you look at all the trends in unemployment and wages growth - they started quite early in the Obama administration, for all that Trump wishes to take credit for them.

What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
 
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phiwum said:
Ah. So your point is "It is difficult to deal with the Republicans," with a dollop of condescension for others on the forum.
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No, no, no. Not difficult. Impossible. To the point that even suggesting that the Democrats do... well anything is met with outright defensive anger at this point.

Basically people are arguing that the Republicans have won in everything but those words and there's this almost "just go away and let me mourn and stew in peace" subtext to a lot of this.
 
Robin said:
What should have he done?

He inherited the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression and he set the country back on the road to recovery in spite of not being left any kind of surplus to use as stimulus.

He made one of the biggest changes in the US health care system in history.

If you look at all the trends in unemployment and wages growth - they started quite early in the Obama administration, for all that Trump wishes to take credit for them.

What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
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It's not my opinion, but something along the lines of addressing the angst of the working class more directly. Obamacare is not popular in many regions, where the self-employed insurance rates have skyrocketed (often due to the choices of the GOP-led state governments).

I don't have any clear idea what Obama should have done, but roughly the idea is that he failed to address the issues of the working class in a way that they felt attention was being paid or something.
 
Robin said:
What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
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He should have done ... vague hand waves ... more. And done it faster.

I remember a political cartoon from early in his Presidency. President Obama was dressed as Ash from "The Evil Dead", using his chainsaw to slash at a horde of zombies that were all groaning "Reaganomics". A man in the background was yelling "Why haven't you fixed the economy yet?"
 
JoeMorgue said:
No, no, no. Not difficult. Impossible. To the point that even suggesting that the Democrats do... well anything is met with outright defensive anger at this point.

Basically people are arguing that the Republicans have won in everything but those words and there's this almost "just go away and let me mourn and stew in peace" subtext to a lot of this.
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That subtext may be in the eye of the beholder.

I don't know what the Democrats should do. I am not mourning or stewing or rejecting suggestions out of hand. And yet you've suggested I've given up and should admit it.

You have a nice story about the mindset of posters on this forum and you're shoehorning everyone into your story rather than addressing what is said.

ETA: In short, why not admit you've given up and have taken solace in criticizing others for not confessing their surrender?
 
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I think the reason for Trump's election was, in large part, due to the SCOTUS vacancy and the other vacancies that were likely to eventuate.

The Christian Right in America would have voted for Trump if he had been a Satanist rather than allow the Democrats to appoint those positions.

You only need to look at the population of evangelicals in the swing states compared to the margins to see that this is quite plausible.
 
Belz... said:
And yet you see fit to criticise how they do it. So if what they're doing is wrong, how would they be doing it right? It's a very clear question.
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Yes. Guilty as charged. I'm criticizing the Democrats for not being able to deal with the Republicans without having a fully realized plan of my own.

If I hire a plumber to fix a leaky toilet and he comes out and can't fix the toilet, I'm gonna fire him and get a new plumber without knowing how to fix the toilet myself as well.
 
Robin said:
What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
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He should have provided simple solutions to complex problems.

Look at the Democratic Party response to the loss of coal jobs in West Virginia. It was a complex scheme of retraining which may also have required people to move as a result.

Donald Trump simply told people that he would get them their old jobs and lifestyles back and since being elected has told people that is what he has done - despite all the evidence to the contrary.
 
JoeMorgue said:
*Shrugs* Feet to the fire if you're a politician and your response to why you can't get anything done is because the other party won't let you, you're just admitting you suck as a politician.
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If if the oppositions entire strategy is "block them"? If you are dealing with someone who has no principles, so strategy, no greater good to achieve than to &*(% you over, how to deal with them?

"Getting stuff done even when people agree with you" is the literal defining point of politics. It's what a politician is. If you don't have that skill you're not a politician, you're an idealist wasting our time.
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The old rules don't apply anymore. Republicans don't attain office to try and achieve things and compromise to get there. They attain office to shut government down. They are pretty open about that.

Besides the Republicans don't seem to have much problem doing damage when the Democrats are in power. They seemed to have figure out a way to do stuff even when they aren't completely unopposed.
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Because the Dems are really slow on the uptake and think the Republicans are working in good faith. "If we give them this now, they will gives us that later." How long until people realize that is not what is happening?

If we're waiting for the Dems to control the Presidency, both Houses of Congress, SCOTUS, a majority of state governorships and state legislatures, and all the major Houses of Westeros before they can get anything done we're screwed because that ain't happening in our lifetime.
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Which sucks because that is the only way things will get done.

Republicans are going to be in some form of power for... ever for our purposes. If the Dems can't find someway of dealing with that (and pointing out "But they are so stupid and crazy and unreasonable!" over and over isn't dealing with) then they might as well not be there at all.
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Republicans are there specifically to block Democrats. To fight them. To demonize them. The only thing that matters to them is saying "no".

There. Is. No. Working. With. Them.

What is so hard to understand about that?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yes. Guilty as charged. I'm criticizing the Democrats for not being able to deal with the Republicans without having a fully realized plan of my own.

If I hire a plumber to fix a leaky toilet and he comes out and can't fix the toilet, I'm gonna fire him and get a new plumber without knowing how to fix the toilet myself as well.
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It is not your criticism of the Democratic leadership that I object to. It is your criticism of mere folk on the forum for "surrendering", just because (like you) they have no real insight on what the Democrats should do.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yes. Guilty as charged. I'm criticizing the Democrats for not being able to deal with the Republicans without having a fully realized plan of my own.

If I hire a plumber to fix a leaky toilet and he comes out and can't fix the toilet, I'm gonna fire him and get a new plumber without knowing how to fix the toilet myself as well.
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It sounds like you're saying that you have no idea what the problem is, like in the analogy. I'm sure that's not right.

The solution should be go appeal to voters and get the asshats out of office. Unfortunately said asshats have gamed the system and changed the rules along the way, so while it's not impossible, it's a lot harder. So they have to campaign harder while trying NOT to alienate people too much. That's the issue. Otherwise the only solutions left are extra-legal.
 
Belz... said:
The solution should be go appeal to voters and get the asshats out of office. Unfortunately said asshats have gamed the system and changed the rules along the way, so while it's not impossible, it's a lot harder. So they have to campaign harder while trying NOT to alienate people too much. That's the issue. Otherwise the only solutions left are extra-legal.
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That's always been my solution as well.
 
phiwum said:
It is not your criticism of the Democratic leadership that I object to. It is your criticism of mere folk on the forum for "surrendering", just because (like you) they have no real insight on what the Democrats should do.
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Exactly what they want to happen is to have a functioning government where the president is bound by laws and committing felonies would be a problem. But we don't really know how to get there from here because we have a problem that such large percentages of the country simply don't care about the presidents crimes. To make the government work we need the republican base to care more about the law than the party.
 
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