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Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

I recently learned about a line from Palin awhile back where she claimed that "... waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists"

Here's a link
 
pharphis said:
I recently learned about a line from Palin awhile back where she claimed that "... waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists"

Here's a link
Click to expand...

Thanks. I recall her saying just that.

Also, there are several things that I find so amazing about the torture advocates, so I have listed them to make it easier for me to keep their nonsense straight:

1) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never agreed to the various international treaties that forbid torture.

2) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should stop telling other nations to stop torturing people.

3) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should be proud of its torture program instead of going to such lengths to establish secret torture chambers around the world.

4) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should still be using torture; but the torture program was stopped by the same people who implemented it.

5) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never paid millions of dollars to those two people that were hired to run the torture program.

6) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never tortured those 29 people who were incorrectly tortured.

7) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the CIA should have never destroyed those video tapes which showed the torture being done.

I am sure that there are additional things that contradict the torture program, but that is all that I can think of at this moment.
 
Crossbow said:
Thanks. I recall her saying just that.

Also, there are several things that I find so amazing about the torture advocates, so I have listed them to make it easier for me to keep their nonsense straight:

1) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never agreed to the various international treaties that forbid torture.

2) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should stop telling other nations to stop torturing people.

3) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should be proud of its torture program instead of going to such lengths to establish secret torture chambers around the world.

4) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should still be using torture; but the torture program was stopped by the same people who implemented it.

5) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never paid millions of dollars to those two people that were hired to run the torture program.

6) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never tortured those 29 people who were incorrectly tortured.

7) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the CIA should have never destroyed those video tapes which showed the torture being done.

I am sure that there are additional things that contradict the torture program, but that is all that I can think of at this moment.
Click to expand...

Overall a good list, especially 2, 3, and 7. I don't quite follow 5, though. 'If x is a great way to achieve y, then the US should never have paid millions of dollars to the people who did x' doesn't seem like a point against x to me.
 
Crossbow said:
Thanks. I recall her saying just that.

Also, there are several things that I find so amazing about the torture advocates, so I have listed them to make it easier for me to keep their nonsense straight:

1) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never agreed to the various international treaties that forbid torture.

2) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should stop telling other nations to stop torturing people.

3) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should be proud of its torture program instead of going to such lengths to establish secret torture chambers around the world.

4) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should still be using torture; but the torture program was stopped by the same people who implemented it.

5) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never paid millions of dollars to those two people that were hired to run the torture program.

6) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never tortured those 29 people who were incorrectly tortured.

7) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the CIA should have never destroyed those video tapes which showed the torture being done.

I am sure that there are additional things that contradict the torture program, but that is all that I can think of at this moment.
Click to expand...

wareyin said:
Overall a good list, especially 2, 3, and 7. I don't quite follow 5, though. 'If x is a great way to achieve y, then the US should never have paid millions of dollars to the people who did x' doesn't seem like a point against x to me.
Click to expand...


Because they had no expertise at all.
 
jimbob said:
Because they had no expertise at all.
Click to expand...

Thanks much, that was exactly the point.

The CIA was so anxious to keep its fingerprints off of the torture issue that they hired these two people who did not know much about torture, but who claimed to be very good at getting information from people via torture, that the CIA immediately hired them, provided them with legal protection, and paid them millions.

In any event, this chicanery did a good bit to keep the CIA from getting directly involved in the torture business and thus the CIA has not had to deal too much with the fallouot from the torture business.
 
Crossbow said:
Thanks. I recall her saying just that.

Also, there are several things that I find so amazing about the torture advocates, so I have listed them to make it easier for me to keep their nonsense straight:

1) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never agreed to the various international treaties that forbid torture.

2) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should stop telling other nations to stop torturing people.

3) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should be proud of its torture program instead of going to such lengths to establish secret torture chambers around the world.

4) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should still be using torture; but the torture program was stopped by the same people who implemented it.

5) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never paid millions of dollars to those two people that were hired to run the torture program.

6) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have never tortured those 29 people who were incorrectly tortured.

7) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the CIA should have never destroyed those video tapes which showed the torture being done.

I am sure that there are additional things that contradict the torture program, but that is all that I can think of at this moment.
Click to expand...

8) if torture is such a great way to get good information then why have police detectives and judges and courts?
 
pharphis said:
Now that I've thought about it some more, I would think the point is irrelevant to torture and more an issue of terrible spending
Click to expand...

That is the association I get from the issue, as well. Perhaps if it was stated something like:5) If torture is such a great way to get good information, then the USA should have already had an existing program rather than paying millions of dollars to those two people that were hired to run the torture program. ?
 
tsig said:
8) if torture is such a great way to get good information then why have police detectives and judges and courts?
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8a) If torture is such a great way to get good information then why are regular police not allowed to use it on their suspects?
 
8b, or possibly 9.

Confessions, are different from information. So the fact that people confessed to witchcraft ETA: Somehow, magicallydoesn't mean it gets false information.
 
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jimbob said:
Confessions, are different from information. So the fact that people confessed to witchcraft doesn't mean it gets false information.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it kinda does.

The interrogator is subject to confirmation bias. Like with confessions, the interrogator is looking for information that matches what s/he believes could be true. That the person being tortured doesn't know where the ticking time bomb is, for example, probably doesn't fit with the interrogator's expectation of what the truth is. So, the interrogator keeps torturing until they get information that meets their expectations, true or false.
 
Edited it for Upchurch

But, yes.


ETA:
And the 20% of completely innocent people who were detained would somehow continue to truthfully deny all knowledge because that way the torturer gets what they want
 
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tsig said:
8) if torture is such a great way to get good information then why have police detectives and judges and courts?
Click to expand...

That is one that I have wondered about as well.

After all, if we could replace the legal system with a few dozen torture centers, then we would be able to learn who is actually guilty and what they are guilty of. Such a program would save quite a few tax dollars since we would no longer have to go through the whole trial process as well as nearly eliminate the entire criminal law profession.

Just replace 'due process' with 'due torture' and then free or imprision as needed.
 
And if it was simply a matter of patriotism and defending the country, why hide it from Colin Powell, the only guy there with a proven track record in patriotism and defending his country? Why would such a patriot "blow his stack"?
 
Crossbow said:
That is one that I have wondered about as well.

After all, if we could replace the legal system with a few dozen torture centers, then we would be able to learn who is actually guilty and what they are guilty of. Such a program would save quite a few tax dollars since we would no longer have to go through the whole trial process as well as nearly eliminate the entire criminal law profession.

Just replace 'due process' with 'due torture' and then free or imprision as needed.
Click to expand...

We should also torture all political candidates to find out their true reasons for running for office.
 
Wudang said:
And if it was simply a matter of patriotism and defending the country, why hide it from Colin Powell, the only guy there with a proven track record in patriotism and defending his country? Why would such a patriot "blow his stack"?
Click to expand...

They probably tortured him to find out why he would
 
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