Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

[ponderingturtle]

Excuse me, but I think that you do not realize that you are arguing against your own point.

First, of all ...

by the time a person is captured,
then delivered to a place where good torture can be done by people who actually know to do it,
then the person tortured to the point where he actually starts talking,
then the information he provides has been validated,

then so much time has elapsed that the person in question normally no longer has any information that is actionable.

Second, of all ...

when the USA tortures its detainees, then the USA is essentially granting permission for other people to torture citizens of the USA that they may be holding.

Therefore, when the USA tortures its detainees in clear violation of national and international law, then it becomes very difficult for the USA to prosecute other nations who practice torture.

As a result, the torture of detainees is a both a practical and morally bankrupt practice.

It also becomes a major propaganda coup for our enemies.

 

[Polaris]

It also becomes a major propaganda coup for our enemies.

That's only a problem for the useful idiots who think that while setting off a car bomb next to a funeral procession is bad, waterboarding those who set the bombs off to prevent more of them is way, way worse!

For the record, I'm against torture. Not for any moral reasons, mind you. I'm against it because it demonstrably doesn't help win the war.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's only a problem for the useful idiots who think that while setting off a car bomb next to a funeral procession is bad, waterboarding those who set the bombs off to prevent more of them is way, way worse!

For the record, I'm against torture. Not for any moral reasons, mind you. I'm against it because it demonstrably doesn't help win the war.

Until you pick up a few innocents and torture them. Then if you are really unlucky pictures leak and you have to punish those who did the torture because of public outcry.

Fortunately only scape goats get punished then.

 

[3point14]

The near certainty that I myself would crack under such pressure and sing like a bird. I have a high tolerance to pain, and am pretty tough. But combined water boarding, sleep deprivation, painful postures, constant interrogation, there's not a single bit of information I could withhold.

The alternative is that such methods never produce names and phone numbers or other relevant information, and that's just obviously not so.

Bear in mind that the people instituting the torture are operating on received wisdom, so really not the brightest bunch in the world. On top of that is that they already 'know' that you're a terrorist.

If you don't tell them what they want to hear (as opposed to telling them the truth) then they're just going to keep going. Eventually you're just going to say what they want you to say. you're going to be pretty useless as a source of information at that point.

You're also giing to be hell bent on revenge if you ever get out.


Oh, and if the victims hadn't previously been convicted in a court of law then the security agencies concerned were torturing innocent men.

 

[Polaris]

Bear in mind that the people instituting the torture are operating on received wisdom, so really not the brightest bunch in the world. On top of that is that they already 'know' that you're a terrorist.

If you don't tell them what they want to hear (as opposed to telling them the truth) then they're just going to keep going. Eventually you're just going to say what they want you to say. you're going to be pretty useless as a source of information at that point.

You're also giing to be hell bent on revenge if you ever get out.


Oh, and if the victims hadn't previously been convicted in a court of law then the security agencies concerned were torturing innocent men.

If an "innocent" is going to be hell-bent on revenge (most likely taken out on truly innocent people who had nothing to do with his torture) then he isn't an innocent.

 

[hgc]

That's only a problem for the useful idiots who think that while setting off a car bomb next to a funeral procession is bad, waterboarding those who set the bombs off to prevent more of them is way, way worse!

For the record, I'm against torture. Not for any moral reasons, mind you. I'm against it because it demonstrably doesn't help win the war.

So, you're not, for instance, morally opposed to the torture of captured American soldiers in order to get vital military information from them?

 

[Polaris]

So, you're not, for instance, morally opposed to the torture of captured American soldiers in order to get vital military information from them?

Didn't I just say that torture doesn't work?

But I am opposed morally to the torture of American soldiers because they're American soldiers - I admit it's a stance based on emotion and I won't apologize for holding a double standard when it comes to American soldiers and Islamists (even the ones who aren't terrorists) or other enemies of the US/West in general.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Didn't I just say that torture doesn't work?

But I am opposed morally to the torture of American soldiers because they're American soldiers - I admit it's a stance based on emotion and I won't apologize for holding a double standard when it comes to American soldiers and Islamists (even the ones who aren't terrorists) or other enemies of the US/West in general.

Exactly they are the undermench.

 

[Polaris]

Exactly they are the undermench.

First, the word is "Untermensch". And second, beg your pardon?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Beg your pardon?

Sorry Untermensch.

 

[Polaris]

Sorry Untermensch.

Holding American soldiers in higher esteem than al-Qaida, the Taliban, Viet Cong, Republican Guard, Waffen SS, the Imperial Japanese military, etc. = Nazi in your mind?

I'm not even going to ask for an apology, not worth it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Holding American soldiers in higher esteem than al-Qaida, the Taliban, Viet Cong, Republican Guard, Waffen SS, the Imperial Japanese military, etc. = Nazi in your mind?

I'm not even going to ask for an apology, not worth it.

Why are you holding them in a higher regard? Clearly no Arab is ever innocent enough that torturing them is a crime. What other groups can you torture at will with out it being a pesky war crime?

When you advocate their methods why shouldn't they be classed together?

 

[Polaris]

Why are you holding them in a higher regard? Clearly no Arab is ever innocent enough that torturing them is a crime. What other groups can you torture at will with out it being a pesky war crime?

When you advocate their methods why shouldn't they be classed together?

I hold them to a higher regard because the short list I posted was of military or para-military organizations actively furthering the ends of hateful, oppressive, violent and sometimes genocidal aims of despots and/or fanatics.

And I never said "Arab" - that's all on you. I did say "Islamist", a group which exists to further hate, violence, oppression and misogyny.

I also didn't advocate torture - I expressly said I was against it. If it's too hard to debate that you have to argue with the cartoon version of what you think I'm advocating, maybe you should count to 10.

 

[hgc]

Didn't I just say that torture doesn't work?

But I am opposed morally to the torture of American soldiers because they're American soldiers - I admit it's a stance based on emotion and I won't apologize for holding a double standard when it comes to American soldiers and Islamists (even the ones who aren't terrorists) or other enemies of the US/West in general.

In other words, some people are people and some are just cockroaches.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

In other words, some people are people and some are just cockroaches.

People who car bomb weddings are cockroaches. People who leave a van packed with explosives beneath buildings are cockroaches. People who plan, fund, and execute efforts to fly planes into buildings are cockroaches.

Scratch that. They're worse; cockroaches don't kill people.

 

[Polaris]

In other words, some people are people and some are just cockroaches.

Well, yes. I think you'd agree that the Imperial Japanese mass-murderers and rapists in Nanking 1937 were far, far worse people than their victims. Or, for that matter, Chivington and his butchers were far, far worse people than Black Kettle's Cheyenne.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

You're right. It was different. There were far bigger stakes and scope involved in WWII than what we face today.

Try to get some perspective.

It's pretty clear from your posts that you are not interested in getting usable information quickly. You are really just looking for revenge on people you think mean you harm. Like the last administration, that is the kind of mindset I don't want in charge in the middle of a crisis.

It seems absurd to me to suggest that the armed forces of a state in the 1940's is the same sort of enemy, to be interrogated in the same manner, as loosely organized jihadists in the 2000's. Naive, really.

Remonstrate with me if you will. I think I'm not the only one here in need of perspective.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

You're right. It was different. There were far bigger stakes and scope involved in WWII than what we face today.

Try to get some perspective.

It's pretty clear from your posts that you are not interested in getting usable information quickly. You are really just looking for revenge on people you think mean you harm. Like the last administration, that is the kind of mindset I don't want in charge in the middle of a crisis.

I'd like to address this post specifically. Upchurch, I've usually agreed with your politics and posting style, but assigning motives to me so you can sneer is frankly beneath you.

Back to the point made about those being tortured and their willingness to say "anything " to make it stop, doesn't "anything" possibly include the truth?

It's great to point out the moral problems, but I've a perhaps dimwitted notion that torture during interrogation works.
It defies belief that such interrogation has never produced useful intelligence.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I hold them to a higher regard because the short list I posted was of military or para-military organizations actively furthering the ends of hateful, oppressive, violent and sometimes genocidal aims of despots and/or fanatics.

And I never said "Arab" - that's all on you. I did say "Islamist", a group which exists to further hate, violence, oppression and misogyny.

I also didn't advocate torture - I expressly said I was against it. If it's too hard to debate that you have to argue with the cartoon version of what you think I'm advocating, maybe you should count to 10.

But there are no innocents in Afghanistan. You were clear on that. And no amount of torture would ever make you want to take up arms against anyone. Only evil people would react that way.

 

[Polaris]

But there are no innocents in Afghanistan. You were clear on that. And no amount of torture would ever make you want to take up arms against anyone. Only evil people would react that way.

Um, nope - perhaps you could be so kind as to point out where you somehow thought I said that.

I would probably want revenge on the specific person who was responsible for my torture - what I wouldn't do is find some substitute(s) who just happened to be of the same nationality or religion and take my revenge out on them, which is unfortunately seems to be seen as acceptable by a large number of Islamists.

I might add, however, that being tortured is not a sure-fire way to lead someone to revenge, and certainly not violent revenge.