seeing the light in skepticism

[AOK Tiger]

De’ville,

You really don’t understand the sceptics on this board at all.

You really seem to think we have “missed” some fundamental truth that is obvious to you ?

We look CAREFULLY at all the same stuff you do and we find NOTHING to suggest a psi effect.

In fact we even go further (or I sure do).. I even say to myself.. what if I am wrong, what if I am so crazy and illogical that I cannot see this “OBVIOUS” stuff ?

SOOO much anecdotal evidence.. there must be something ?? Right ???

How can I find out if I am wrong.. ??? After all I cannot trust my own educated opinion…

Ignore what I think and what others think, ignore human testimony.. ( it could be just as flawed as me).. what do we have left.

1. Physical evidence = NIL
2. Scientific possibility = NIL
3. Paradoxical possibility = NIL
4. Historical Evidence = NIL
5. Logical evidence = NIL

And then the killer…

If ANY psi effect existed it would have for 1,000’s of years.. its manifestation in our physical existence would be so fundamentally obvious by now (see round Earth) we would not even argue about it.

The other cruncher is.. WE DO WANT PSI TO EXIST… we have NO possible reason to NOT want to have this potentially marvellous superpower…

Sadly we live in the real world..

 

[monkboon]

The other cruncher is.. WE DO WANT PSI TO EXIST… we have NO possible reason to NOT want to have this potentially marvellous superpower…

I won't speak for anyone else, but I for one am quite relieved that certain of these so-called PSI abilities do not exist. All the slapped faces for the odd stray thought that I have not experienced are well worth my lack of remote-viewing ability.

 

[flyboy217]

But placebos don't heal bones or cure cancer, or make blind people see. These conditions are real physical conditions and are unaffected by placebos.

Perhaps a placebo might make you feel your broken leg hurt less, but it won't make it heal any differently.

Do you agree that hypnosis can make you heal faster? If so, why could a placebo not accomplish the same task?

 

[AOK Tiger]

Flyboy,

The point is placebos work in situation where a patient CAN heal themselves.

Conditions brought on by stress, being run down etc can be helped if the patient THINKS they are being cured.. they change their attitude and even the way they look after them selves …

They do not work when actual physical intervention is required.

They DO NOT affect the physical world.

 

[Dragon]

Flyboy,

The point is placebos work in situation where a patient CAN heal themselves.

Conditions brought on by stress, being run down etc can be helped if the patient THINKS they are being cured.. they change their attitude and even the way they look after them selves …

They do not work when actual physical intervention is required.

They DO NOT affect the physical world.

Aussie, I agree 100% with your first two sentences, but not with your conclusion.
If, like me, you think that the mind is part of the physical/natural world (because that is all there is) then if placebos have any effect at all then it must be on that world.
Also, we know that what happens in the mind can affect the rest of the body in all sorts of ways (think of nausea or sexual arousal).
So it is not a flight of fancy to hypothesize that a placebo can lead to a physical change and a healing effect without any recourse to the supernatural.

 

[Anders]

You are joking, right? After 150 years of research, and the PSI/ESP/parapsycology researchers has, to date, not come up with a single scienctifically valid result.

If you call that success, well...

OK, lets wait for awhile, and then we'll hear something like:
- "But there are scienctifically valid result, just look at these papers(followed by 3-5 links, at least two to articles of Radin, Bem or Dalton or even early Blackmore)"
- "The results are too dangerous for you small minded people, you just don't understand"
- "Meta-analysis show result, you just don't want to accept those"
- "Nature and Science are authorites, we don't trust them"
- "There must be PSI/ESP, how would we otherwise explain the supernatural mind"

And I forgot the ubiquitous "conspiracy", the "fact" that the government hide "dangerous" knowledge like PSI! But the Advocaat reminded me, see above.

 

[Anders]

Aussie, I agree 100% with your first two sentences, but not with your conclusion.
If, like me, you think that the mind is part of the physical/natural world (because that is all there is) then if placebos have any effect at all then it must be on that world.
Also, we know that what happens in the mind can affect the rest of the body in all sorts of ways (think of nausea or sexual arousal).
So it is not a flight of fancy to hypothesize that a placebo can lead to a physical change and a healing effect without any recourse to the supernatural.

Agree! The mind can "give order" to the body to produce proteins and signal-substances. This is however pruley physical.

 

[Dr Adequate]

We look CAREFULLY at all the same stuff you do and we find NOTHING to suggest a psi effect.

Hey! What about De'Ville's prediction of Kerry's big win?

You just can't argue with evidence like that.

 

[Ashles]

That is understandable, particulalrly if you have a lot invested in the old world view.

What does this even mean?
The world view is that science can discover new things.
If Psi existed it could be demonstrated and would be adopted into scientific theory and research.
There would be no change to a 'world view' except that we think Psi doesn't exist and we would then discover that it does.

You have been given example after example on this forum and even in this thread.

There is not a single scientifically interesting or valid example of this.
If you are trying to argue from an Occamic and Scientific viewpoint then there is no useful evidence as has been repeatedly explained to you.

And if you are arguing from a viewpoint that believes science is not an adequate tool for measuring psi then you will have no useful or convincing evidence by this method either.

Either way, as the situation currently stands (and has stood for a long time) there is no convincing evidence for the existence of Psi.
Believe it exists by all means if you personally want to, but claims that has been shown to exist are just obviously incorrect and guided by personal beliefs/agendas.
Constantly repeating your beliefs will never make them true.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Do you agree that hypnosis can make you heal faster?...

No. I would like to see some references for that.

 

[Carn]

It is worth noting that it is completely logical for this effect to be suppressed until it is under complete control, for reaqsons of National security. You can be sure the systems of defence and intelligence throughout the world will categorically NOT want such effects to be in the power of the public domain unless the State/govt is in a position of complete control. So it is quite natural to suppose that systems already exist which 'gatekeep' the effect from any means of public access or control. That is not a wild conspiracy theory, it is a completely logical step to take for any statutory intelligence/defence organisation

It is further worth noticing, that it is completely logical, that the intelligence agencies/government/state/etc. would have failed to keep it longer than 10 years secret.

Why?

Understanding of nuclear fission allows to build nukes and these are far more important to any government than lousy ESP/etc. And although it was paramount for the security of USA, that UDSSR does not become able to build nukes as well, it still took them just 5 years to retrieve all information to build some themselves.
And today practically anybody with a university degree in physics knows general principle of nukes and could tell any interested party, what is needed to build one.
Several states, which are certainly not among the biggest and most advanced, have acquired nukes or will in the next 20 years, if left alone.
The US intelligence services would have been granted billions to prevent the spreading of this knowledge and would have killed to keep it secret.

Oh, wrong, US intelligence services have been granted billions and have killed to keep the knowledge of nukes out of the wrong hands and still they failed.

Why do you think they should do any better with ESP,Psi,Aliens,Atlantis,etc., if there is a truth in it, that is in any way relevant for politics?

Carn


(Realy crazy conspi theory: The US suceeded in using ESP for intelligence and actually developed it further to long distance mind control. They used it to make Gorbatchev cripple the UDSSR and afterwards someone in former UDSSR got suspicious and they had to stop the programs and fake them to make them look like a useless waste of money.)

 

[Ashles]

That is not a wild conspiracy theory

Seems like the word 'not' accidentally got in there somehow.

 

[Anders]

Well that's completely innacurate and a good example of the topic of this thread. Anders, you are choosing not to see the reality for some reason. That is understandable, particulalrly if you have a lot invested in the old world view. You have been given example after example on this forum and even in this thread. The reaction by some has been to virtually put their hands over their eyes and whistle in the dark, for others the reaction is to invent either a supposed conspiracy of mass fraud within the scientific labs accross the world or suppose that the entire body of reports are the result of the biggest delusion in the history of mankind. The simplest explanation is that scientific models do not have a full working knowledge of all the mechanisms and effects in existence - this has been shown to be accurate throughout history, so it is pretty certain that that is the also the current state of affairs - and at the very LEAST some of these reports are exactly what they are purported to be, a currently anomalous effect which is currently beyond the understanding of known scientific laws. That, is the simplest, Occamic, explanation.
It is worth noting that it is completely logical for this effect to be suppressed until it is under complete control, for reaqsons of National security. You can be sure the systems of defence and intelligence throughout the world will categorically NOT want such effects to be in the power of the public domain unless the State/govt is in a position of complete control. So it is quite natural to suppose that systems already exist which 'gatekeep' the effect from any means of public access or control. That is not a wild conspiracy theory, it is a completely logical step to take for any statutory intelligence/defence organisation

OK, I do agree that there are a few studies that show a slight ESP effect, and that those studies, a few of them, are of good quality. However, most of the studies show no effect, and those that show a great effect are usually of bad quality. If we make the comparison with, for instance, chemistry, psychology, or medicine, those slight effects would not even be considered.

The conspiracy you are referring to is probably no existing. Military tend to use the most effect way of getting a job done. PSI/ESP seems to me not being the most effective way of getting the job done. I would say that spies, electronic surveillance and satellites are the most effect information gatherers, not Remote Viewing. Bombs and M16's are better at killing and destruction, then PSI forces.

 

[De'Ville's Advocaat]

I would say that spies, electronic surveillance and satellites are the most effect information gatherers, not Remote Viewing. Bombs and M16's are better at killing and destruction, then PSI forces.

The issue is not the power, but the accessibility and implication. It has not be allowed to exist until now mainly for cultural, economic reasons rather than millitary. The millitary/defence would have to be in control merely to be always ahead of the game, but the 'good thing' about such a cover-up is that it keeps the people happy. No one wants to know that people are running around who have access to your thoughts, let alone the leaders of any of the major religions, or the politicians, or the criminals, or the blood sucking international fascist capitalists... it makes the governance of society extremely difficult. All power rests on secrecy and the control and supply of information and the Psi effects threaten this. It can simply not be allowed to exist in any society which exerts its control through limiting peoples individual and collective power.

 

[Anders]

The issue is not the power, but the accessibility and implication. It has not be allowed to exist until now mainly for cultural, economic reasons rather than millitary. The millitary/defence would have to be in control merely to be always ahead of the game, but the 'good thing' about such a cover-up is that it keeps the people happy. No one wants to know that people are running around who have access to your thoughts, let alone the leaders of any of the major religions, or the politicians, or the criminals, or the blood sucking international fascist capitalists... it makes the governance of society extremely difficult. All power rests on secrecy and the control and supply of information and the Psi effects threaten this. It can simply not be allowed to exist in any society which exerts its control through limiting peoples individual and collective power.

Amazing that YOU have this inside information! Or is it just your own private views that shine through?

Hmm, "blood sucking international fascist capitalists", oh, you mean those that pay the saleries of millions of workers? Sorry, I know this isn't the political thread, but I couldn't resist. No more politics from me!

 

[Dr Adequate]

The millitary/defence would have to be in control merely to be always ahead of the game, but the 'good thing' about such a cover-up is that it keeps the people happy. No one wants to know that people are running around who have access to your thoughts, let alone the leaders of any of the major religions, or the politicians, or the criminals, or the blood sucking international fascist capitalists...

Curiously enough, although they have access to my thoughts, those of, for example, Osama Bin Laden seem quite opaque to them. Perhaps he's wearing a tinfoil turban.

 

[Ashles]

No Adequate. Once again your understanding is, how can I put it, not entirely adequate.

Osama is obviously one of their PSI agents gone rogue. As well as thought control (and psychokinesis) he can also 'block' the mind reading powers of other agents.

He is being globally hunted by a combination of Mercanaries, Delta Force Warriors and Majestic-12 who control the world governments. His abilities have the power to negate an evil conspiracy to create global anarchy.

Oh hang on, that's 'Scarecrow' by Matthew Reilly...

 

[Ashles]

The issue is not the power, but the accessibility and implication. It has not be allowed to exist until now mainly for cultural, economic reasons rather than millitary. The millitary/defence would have to be in control merely to be always ahead of the game, but the 'good thing' about such a cover-up is that it keeps the people happy. No one wants to know that people are running around who have access to your thoughts, let alone the leaders of any of the major religions, or the politicians, or the criminals, or the blood sucking international fascist capitalists... it makes the governance of society extremely difficult. All power rests on secrecy and the control and supply of information and the Psi effects threaten this. It can simply not be allowed to exist in any society which exerts its control through limiting peoples individual and collective power.

De'Ville, you're a loon.

No offense.

 

[Mojo]

Do you agree that hypnosis can make you heal faster? If so, why could a placebo not accomplish the same task?

Perhaps hypnosis works as a placebo? Power of suggestion and all that.

 

[jj]

Another stupid psych-101 thread, just what we needed.

* yawn *

SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! SHOW US THE EVIDENCE!

Don't just keep spamming up the board about how sceptics are too closed-minded to see blah yadda metaphysics blah jabber frightened of the truth wibble paradigms burble mind set spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam.

The fact that believers seem to spend more time drivelling out this stuff than talking about evidence for psi has done more than anything else to convince me there's nothing at all in it. Their substitute for any hard evidence is whining about the people who aren't convinced by flimsy, half-baked evidence. Now,

<marquee>SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE</marquee>

Moderators, may we please, please, have a link to the posting I've quoted here in the smiley section? It would save time in typing, and you'd only have to store one copy!

Priceless. And excellent.