Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Thor 2]

I maintain, it is possible that a deceiving spirit spoke to, or through Grace Cooke in her early years. I found a quote, that I posted above that White Eagle is not one individual, but a large group of spirits using that name.

It is hard for me to write the whole thing off as bogus, and in fact White Eagle lodge has grown into a world wide organisation. But I will not quote any more of the teachings.

You must have been asked this before but where do spirits originate? Do they have Earthly origins or otherwise? Have they been created from scratch or are they peoples souls that have made it?

 

[abaddon]

I maintain, it is possible that a deceiving spirit spoke to, or through Grace Cooke in her early years. I found a quote, that I posted above that White Eagle is not one individual, but a large group of spirits using that name.

Now your claim is that these "spirits" are not reliable because they can and do lie. Do you not see a problem with this?

It is hard for me to write the whole thing off as bogus, and in fact White Eagle lodge has grown into a world wide organisation. But I will not quote any more of the teachings.

No, it hasn't. It is an extreme fringe group, nothing more.

No at all, when I was a boy there were many theories about Mars having canals for irrigations Venus was even more mysterious being covered in clouds.

And that is exactly what pseudo-spiritualists trade in. Nobody knows, so make any crap up and feed it to the gullible marks. Lowell started the martian canal rubbish in 1895 and the "psychic" fraternity ran with it because they knew they would be long dead before their claims could be tested. What makes you think the new crop of scammers is any different?

Nobody knew the hostile conditions on Venus until the Russian probes were destroyed as soon as they landed. They built tougher probes that could survive the heat and acid longer, before there were any pictures of Venus surface.

But that didn't stop your gurus making wild claims about Martian and Venusian civilisations. Why is that? And once again, why do you think the new crop of claims is any different?

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

No at all, when I was a boy there were many theories about Mars having canals for irrigation.

1910 was about when science ruled out canals on Mars. I know the idea didn't die right away but it generally died out from knowledgeable people about then.

Venus was even more mysterious being covered in clouds.
Nobody knew the hostile conditions on Venus until the Russian probes were destroyed as soon as they landed. They built tougher probes that could survive the heat and acid longer, before there were any pictures of Venus surface.

Not quite accurate. Temperatures and pressures were first estimated on flyby missions and atmospheric probes which weren't expected to land. The first mission that actually intended to land was actually overbuilt and survived the landing, though not perfectly. The problems it encountered were due to a parachute failure and subsequent bouncy landing. Not clear what role the temperature and pressure might have played in those failure but the mission determined that the actual temperature and pressures were well within its design limits. As far as surviving the temperature and pressure of the surface, all landers met or exceeded their design goals. The majority of Venus mission failures happened closer to Earth than to Venus.

 

[Scorpion]

You must have been asked this before but where do spirits originate? Do they have Earthly origins or otherwise? Have they been created from scratch or are they peoples souls that have made it?

The theory is that our spirits were breathed out of the Godhead in large batches. But they could not function as pure spirits because they had no experience, so they/we began the long cycle of incarnations, on this and other planets.

 

[The Shrike]

The theory is that our spirits were breathed out of the Godhead in large batches. But they could not function as pure spirits because they had no experience, so they/we began the long cycle of incarnations, on this and other planets.

That's not a theory and it's also rubbish.

 

[Scorpion]

Now your claim is that these "spirits" are not reliable because they can and do lie. Do you not see a problem with this?

No, it hasn't. It is an extreme fringe group, nothing more.

And that is exactly what pseudo-spiritualists trade in. Nobody knows, so make any crap up and feed it to the gullible marks. Lowell started the martian canal rubbish in 1895 and the "psychic" fraternity ran with it because they knew they would be long dead before their claims could be tested. What makes you think the new crop of scammers is any different?

But that didn't stop your gurus making wild claims about Martian and Venusian civilisations. Why is that? And once again, why do you think the new crop of claims is any different?

I had about 8 White Eagle books, and in all the texts I only found one sentence that was clearly false. That sentence said there were people on Mars and Venus. That is all that was said, there was nothing about civilisations.
It could have come from a deceiving spirit in Grace Cooke's early years.
But I cannot really justify it, so as I said I will refrain from quoting White Eagle either here or elsewhere on the internet.

 

[Pixel42]

The theory wild, baseless speculation is that our spirits were breathed out of the Godhead in large batches.

FTFY.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I had about 8 White Eagle books, and in all the texts I only found one sentence that was clearly false. That sentence said there were people on Mars and Venus. That is all that was said, there was nothing about civilisations.
It could have come from a deceiving spirit in Grace Cooke's early years.
But I cannot really justify it, so as I said I will refrain from quoting White Eagle either here or elsewhere on the internet.

Earlier in the thread, you used the claim that the spirits knew something (about your brother) that no-one else could have known as evidence that these spirits were real.

Now they have told you something that they should have known, but didn't, you are not using this as evidence that they aren't real.

It seems to me that your belief in the spirit world exists independent of any actual evidence, and that anything you encounter will be filtered through this preconception.
There's a phrase for this.

 

[steenkh]

I had about 8 White Eagle books, and in all the texts I only found one sentence that was clearly false.

Of course. The scammers will always avoid making statements that can be proven false. In this case, Grace Cooke thought - correctly - that she would not be proven wrong for a long, long time. she probably even thought she would never be proven wrong.

 

[Darat]

No at all, when I was a boy there were many theories about Mars having canals for irrigation.... Snip... .

No there was not. There was still a lot of fiction about canals that went along with the idea of canals on Mars. But our actual knowledge had already ruled them out.

In other words your spiritual beings didn't even know as much as we did, indeed it seems their source was the same as yours, ie fiction.

 

[Darat]

1910 was about when science ruled out canals on Mars. I know the idea didn't die right away but it generally died out from knowledgeable people about then.



Not quite accurate. Temperatures and pressures were first estimated on flyby missions and atmospheric probes which weren't expected to land. The first mission that actually intended to land was actually overbuilt and survived the landing, though not perfectly. The problems it encountered were due to a parachute failure and subsequent bouncy landing. Not clear what role the temperature and pressure might have played in those failure but the mission determined that the actual temperature and pressures were well within its design limits. As far as surviving the temperature and pressure of the surface, all landers met or exceeded their design goals. The majority of Venus mission failures happened closer to Earth than to Venus.

The evidence was very strong by the end of the 1950s that Venus's surface temperature was extremely hot compared to the earths. This was confirmed by the Mariner 2 mission at the end of 1962.

The hard science fiction authors then pretty much dropped the idea of the hot humid jungle environment for Venus. (Some of them even wrote articles about how they'd got it wrong, looking at you Lucky Starr!)

What we see again and again in the nonsense Scorpion keeps quoting is anything that can be verified is wrong, not only wrong but wrong in a way you'd expect someone ignorant of the then up to date current scientific knowledge, in other words exactly what you'd expect if someone was making it all up.

 

[Darat]

Of course. The scammers will always avoid making statements that can be proven false. In this case, Grace Cooke thought - correctly - that she would not be proven wrong for a long, long time. she probably even thought she would never be proven wrong.

Don't think she was even that canny, think she just regurgited whatever was popular knowledge at the time depending on who was asking or she had in mind as her audience. Again it's almost as if she didn't have any more access to knowledge than anyone else who'd got their knowledge from the Daily Express in the morning.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The theory is that our spirits were breathed out of the Godhead in large batches. But they could not function as pure spirits because they had no experience, so they/we began the long cycle of incarnations, on this and other planets.

Planets like Venus and Mars?

BTW, you never answered the question about White Eagle being a Christian.
How does that work, exactly? The Christians weren't exactly kind to the Native Americans, nor tolerant of their beliefs.
From which tribe was White Eagle from?

 

[kali1137]

It could have come from a deceiving spirit in Grace Cooke's early years.

So what you are saying is that spirits are way more evolved than us lowly humans, on their way to reaching perfection, but can't help but feel the need to lie to us? Why would highly evolved spirits need to lie?

 

[Scorpion]

So what you are saying is that spirits are way more evolved than us lowly humans, on their way to reaching perfection, but can't help but feel the need to lie to us? Why would highly evolved spirits need to lie?

Everyone who dies becomes a spirit, and there are different levels of evolved souls in the spirit world. On a bad day an inexperienced medium might be fooled by a lower spirit. It might amuse some lower spirits to deceive and torment humans

 

[Scorpion]

Planets like Venus and Mars??

No, there are many other planets in the universe.

BTW, you never answered the question about White Eagle being a Christian.
How does that work, exactly? The Christians weren't exactly kind to the Native Americans, nor tolerant of their beliefs.
From which tribe was White Eagle from?

I quoted in post 1694 that a spirit explained there were many spirits coming through under the name of White Eagle. It was not just one red Indian.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Everyone who dies becomes a spirit, and there are different levels of evolved souls in the spirit world. On a bad day an inexperienced medium might be fooled by a lower spirit. It might amuse some lower spirits to deceive and torment humans

Okay... let's grant you this premise.
So, when a spirit tells you something true you can verify, like the existence of a predeceased brother, this proves they're real and are telling the truth.

When spirits tell you something that's verifiably untrue, this proves they're real and are lying to you because some spirits are like that.

(I won't go into the obvious confirmation bias here)

So, how about all the things you can't verify?
The stuff about the spirit world, reincarnation, the existence of God, what our goal is in life, and so on... How do you know this comes from the reputable good spirits, and not from the mischievous lying spirits?
Because it sounds like you're just going with what feels good to you, and the spirits are just an excuse...

 

[Scorpion]

Okay... let's grant you this premise.
So, when a spirit tells you something true you can verify, like the existence of a predeceased brother, this proves they're real and are telling the truth.

When spirits tell you something that's verifiably untrue, this proves they're real and are lying to you because some spirits are like that.

(I won't go into the obvious confirmation bias here)

So, how about all the things you can't verify?
The stuff about the spirit world, reincarnation, the existence of God, what our goal is in life, and so on... How do you know this comes from the reputable good spirits, and not from the mischievous lying spirits?
Because it sounds like you're just going with what feels good to you, and the spirits are just an excuse...

There is no way to be certain if reincarnation theory is correct, or if there is a God. But most of the trance mediums I have heard, say these things are true.

 

[abaddon]

Everyone who dies becomes a spirit, and there are different levels of evolved souls in the spirit world. On a bad day an inexperienced medium might be fooled by a lower spirit. It might amuse some lower spirits to deceive and torment humans

Wow. So many unevidenced claims in such a short paragraph.

First demonstrate that spirits exist.

How do you know that EVERYONE who dies becomes a spirit?
How do you know that spirits evolve?

How do you know that there are any "levels" at all?

How do you know that there is a spirit world at all? And if there is, it must be particularly noxious since these "spirits" seem to have nothing better to do than fiddle with this one. And if the plan is that we evolve in this world towards some imagined goal, why are the "spirits" totally borking that evolution?

Why would a medium have a bad day? Aren't they connected to a higher power? Why don't the higher spirits do something useful by blocking these lower spirits? Are they that useless? Is that level of ineffectiveness something you aspire to?

If you bother to respond, your answer will include some variation of elitism, carefully cloaked.

 

[abaddon]

'fraid not. Evolution doesn't go anywhere other than in response to selective pressures on individuals in the present. Cheetahs of today might be a shade faster (or slower or larger or smaller or differently patterned or whatever) than cheetahs from 10,000 years ago, but they struggle to survive no less.

Correct, because their prey have similarly evolved and are a shade faster (or slower or larger or smaller or differently patterned or whatever).

In many ways evolution is like a permanent ongoing arms race.

Also interesting is Scorpions notion that evolution has an upward goal. It doesn't. Evolution is omnidirectional. Upwards, downwards, sideways all are good if they contribute to the survival of a species. Indeed survival is not a driver of evolution, it is a consequence.