Science vs Teleology: Which lens is best for viewing 911?

tanabear said:
When I used to post at townhall the Bush Cultists and neo-con propagandists always used the word the "enemy". David Limbaugh was probably the worse. He, like Ron Wieck, dwells in a place called neo-con propaganda land. This is a made-up world just like Middle-Earth or Wonderland. The people that live in this world do not live in reality. They believe that there is a war on terror, Iraq had WMD; ties to Al-Qaeda; the neo-cons are the guardians of peace and justice in the republic; and Jorge Bush is a superhero terrorist fighter who never falters or fails in his struggle against the evil-doers. He always stands tall against those who seek to thwart him. This is all a fantastic delusion. Somebody watching from the reality-based community can only sit and smile. :)

David Limbaugh, "pray the president will have the strength and support to overcome his domestic opponents so that he can continue to lead us effectively against our terrorist enemy...After all, the enemy recruits radical Muslims from the general Muslim population, and so we must go out of our way to prove how much we care to deter further terrorist recruitment."

Mona Charen, "Within the past several weeks, presidential aspirant Barack Obama has announced that he would meet with America's enemies and attack America's friends."

So who are these enemies? Why can't they be named? During WWII we could name our enemies, the Nazis and the Japanese. During the Cold War we could name our enemies, the Soviets and their Communist supporters. Why can't we name this enemy?

Now what terrorist enemy are the neo-cons referring to? Maybe Saddam? His favorite author was Ernest Hemingway and his favorite movie was The Godfather.

Bush invited Ibrahim al-Jaafari(of the al-Dawa Party) to the White House when he was the interim Prime Minister of Iraq. This is a man who laid a wreathe at the tomb of the Ayatollah Khomeini. He also invited Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the leader of SCIRI(Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, now SIIC)to the White House. This party basically represents the ideals of Khoemini and the Iranian Revolution. Their seat of power was in Tehran. The Dawa Party and SCIRI were both considered terrorist organizations in the 1980's. So why did Bush invite these Islamic radicals to the White House?

Because there is no War on Terror, only a War for Empire.
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Will we ever actually attempt to acquire this empire? The loony-left's war for oil didn't exactly pan out--remember? I'm afraid those precincts have reported.
 
Pomeroo:

What makes you so sure you have the moral high ground here?

I suppose your thinking is totally free from E-motions,... where E stands for Ethnocentric.

Since we have never met, you really don't know who I am!

In reality I have no race, color or creed to you ... All I am is a figment of YOUR MIND!

A simulacrum.

So don't forget that.

Therefore please stop your meaningless analysis of my imagined ideals, for you know not of what you speak.

For me, your political views are just that: your politics!

But does that make you correct?

I have my politics too...

But I do not mix politics with science, do you?
 
tanabear said:
When I used to post at townhall the Bush Cultists and neo-con propagandists always used the word the "enemy". David Limbaugh was probably the worse. He, like Ron Wieck, dwells in a place called neo-con propaganda land. This is a made-up world just like Middle-Earth or Wonderland. The people that live in this world do not live in reality. They believe that there is a war on terror, Iraq had WMD; ties to Al-Qaeda; the neo-cons are the guardians of peace and justice in the republic; and Jorge Bush is a superhero terrorist fighter who never falters or fails in his struggle against the evil-doers. He always stands tall against those who seek to thwart him. This is all a fantastic delusion. Somebody watching from the reality-based community can only sit and smile. :)

David Limbaugh, "pray the president will have the strength and support to overcome his domestic opponents so that he can continue to lead us effectively against our terrorist enemy...After all, the enemy recruits radical Muslims from the general Muslim population, and so we must go out of our way to prove how much we care to deter further terrorist recruitment."

Mona Charen, "Within the past several weeks, presidential aspirant Barack Obama has announced that he would meet with America's enemies and attack America's friends."

So who are these enemies? Why can't they be named? During WWII we could name our enemies, the Nazis and the Japanese. During the Cold War we could name our enemies, the Soviets and their Communist supporters. Why can't we name this enemy?

Now what terrorist enemy are the neo-cons referring to? Maybe Saddam? His favorite author was Ernest Hemingway and his favorite movie was The Godfather.

Bush invited Ibrahim al-Jaafari(of the al-Dawa Party) to the White House when he was the interim Prime Minister of Iraq. This is a man who laid a wreathe at the tomb of the Ayatollah Khomeini. He also invited Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the leader of SCIRI(Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, now SIIC)to the White House. This party basically represents the ideals of Khoemini and the Iranian Revolution. Their seat of power was in Tehran. The Dawa Party and SCIRI were both considered terrorist organizations in the 1980's. So why did Bush invite these Islamic radicals to the White House?

Because there is no War on Terror, only a War for Empire.
Click to expand...


Remarkable stupidity. America's enemies are easy to name. They include North Korea, Iran, Syria, and China, in addition to stateless jihadist organizations.
 
Apollo20 said:
Pomeroo:

What makes you so sure you have the moral high ground here?

I suppose your thinking is totally free from E-motions,... where E stands for Ethnocentric.

Since we have never met, you really don't know who I am!

In reality I have no race, color or creed to you ... All I am is a figment of YOUR MIND!

A simulacrum.

So don't forget that.

Therefore please stop your meaningless analysis of my imagined ideals, for you know not of what you speak.

For me, your political views are just that: your politics!

But does that make you correct?

I have my politics too...

But I do not mix politics with science, do you?
Click to expand...


Your science may be rigorous, but your political views seem to have been shaped by the fabrications of crackpots. Bin Laden was never a CIA asset, despite the tendentious lies promoted by America-hating cranks. You understand more clearly than most of us are capable of understanding that the Twin Towers fell from the impacts of the planes and the resultant fires. The whole fantasy movement rests on lies and bad science. Why you give ignorant dunces the satisfaction of watching you wrangle with rationalists who admire your work is a mystery I don't expect to solve.
 
pomeroo said:
Remarkable stupidity. America's enemies are easy to name. They include North Korea, Iran, Syria, and China, in addition to stateless jihadist organizations.
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China?!? If it weren't for their interest in our currency we wouldn't be in Iraq where we don't belong.
 
Best is better than good

Max Photon said:
Not necessarily. For example, if a women is murdered, who's the first suspect, even if it is not explicitly expressed? The husband! Why? Because it has happened in the past that husbands have killed wives. So it is standard to investigate the husband.

Similarly, if a warehouse full of old goods burns, fire investigators will consider the possibility of arson with intent to get rid of inventory and collect insurance. Again, is there any reason to expect significant false positives?

Max
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Yet in the first instance, it ultimately turns out to be a third woman; a stalker of the husband and jealous of the wife. And in the second, it ultimately turns out to be a Mafia member trying to dispose of the body of his enemy.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.


While I am sure this teleological lens has - unfortunately - produced some false positives in the past, I suspect most of the time it doesn't.
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Teleology is good, but is good better than best? The title of this thread does not ask for an assessment of teleology, but for a comparison between teleology and science.
 
Could this be the sign of the End Times?

RedIbis said:
China?!? If it weren't for their interest in our currency we wouldn't be in Iraq where we don't belong.
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I am inclined to agree with RedIbis (is armageddon coming?). China is an important trade partner of the US, and they have not committed any hostile acts against us.

They may be one of the most oppressive, murderous regimes in existence, but (purely from a political standpoint) I wouldn't call them an "enemy".
 
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Max Photon said:
1337m4n,

Thanks for focusing. :boggled: :)

To your question: Is there a "teleological method"?....

I'm not sure. I'm trying to figure that out. I've tried to put forth some starting places.

It would seem, for example, one could ask:

What changes in the scientific method are required to study card magicians vs. average people playing standard card games?
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Why not ask the Amazing Randi?

Then, too, there's scientists who study animals, and can prove that chimps can recognize themselves in the mirror. Surely they must be able to contribute a some catchy scientific jargon!
 
Apollo20 said:
And, let’s face it Pomeroo, Islamaphobia in the wake of 9/11 is a creation of the Western Media (read propaganda peddlers) who are embedded with the US/UK Military-Industrial-Government complex; a brainwashing on a par with the Reds-Under-the-Beds fear-mongering of the 1950s.
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I don't agree with this. The "Western Media" does indeed shape the West's view of the dangers to it from Islam, but it's just wrong to think that it only exaggerates it. Or, makes it up out of whole cloth.

See The Sword of the Prophet by Srđa Trifković.

I would agree, though, that when really dangerous Islamic forces are supported by the West, it is time to take a step back and ask "What is going on?". Check out part two of From Kurdistan to Kosovo to see Western bigwigs (including General Wesley Clark) yuck it up with narco-terrorist Thaci. It was Thaci's beloved KLA that beheaded Christian Serbs, with Islamic justification. Talk about strange bedfellows....

Of course, if you added up all the Muslims killed by the West in the last 100 years (doubtless because they're sitting on fabulous amounts of oil), it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the Westerners killed by Muslims, whether you're talking about bona fide extremists, or those under the control (however imperfect) of Western intelligence agencies. Thus, any rational person would agree that Muslims have much more to fear from the West than vice versa, at least based on recent history.
 
Apollo20 said:
We all know that al Qaeda was an American creation, and for proof of this assertion may I suggest that you read the book “Dollars for Terror” by Richard Labeviere which documents the role of the US in the rise of fundamentalist Islam.
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Fundamentalist Islam predates the creation of the US state.


Apollo20 said:
We all know that OBL was the CIA’s “Man in Kandahar” who was leading the “holy war” against the Red Army in Afghanistan in the early 1980s.
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There's pretty good evidence that Osama Bin Laden never even stepped foot in Afghanistan during the Soviet War. He was working on behalf of Saudi Arabia, not the US.



Apollo20 said:
But with the evacuation of Russian troops from Afghanistan in 1989, the strange alliance between the “Afghans” and the CIA supposedly came to an abrupt end.
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There was never any sort of alliance between the CIA and any of the Mujahideen. The CIA "alliance" was with the ISI.



Apollo20 said:
It therefore came as a great embarrassment to the US government that in 1998 the FBI had clearly established links between the CIA and OBL’s al Qaeda networks in connection with the Nairobi and Dar es Salaam bombings.
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Yes because there was a double agent in Al Qaeda who had infiltrated US intelligence.



Apollo20 said:
And who, by the year 2000, was the most active intelligence operative inside al Qaeda - a confidant of OBL and Ayman al-Zawahiri no less - who simultaneously supplied intelligence to the DIA and the Able Danger unit? None other than Ali Mohamed
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Um, Ali Mohamed was arrested in September 1998, so he wasn't doing Al Qaeda any good at all in 2000. He also never supplied any intelligence to the DIA. His contacts were with the CIA and FBI.



Apollo20 said:
So Pomeroo, it is pretty-well proven that the US Justice Department knew enough about the plans for 9/11 to stop it dead in its tracks well before 2001 – but didn’t! So here's the real conspiracy brought to you by Bush, Blair and co!
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Ali Mohamed was arrested before the 9/11 plot even existed, so if you think you've found yourself a raging clue there, you're mistaken.

Oh... I see he's been banned. About time.
 
My apologies, I wrote the following exactly backwards,

metamars said:
Of course, if you added up all the Muslims killed by the West in the last 100 years (doubtless because they're sitting on fabulous amounts of oil), it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the Westerners killed by Muslims, whether you're talking about bona fide extremists, or those under the control (however imperfect) of Western intelligence agencies.
Click to expand...

as can be inferred from the sentence that followed it.:

Thus, any rational person would agree that Muslims have much more to fear from the West than vice versa, at least based on recent history.
Click to expand...

I should add that it's only fair to add Muslims killed by Western meddling into the total, even if the actual killers were not Westerners, themselves. So, e.g., since the US and Israel trained Savak in torture methods, those tortured to death in Iran at their hands should be blamed on the West, not Islam.
 
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