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Science Disproves Evolution

Dancing David, you ought to take a look further up the page, where people have pointed out where the quotes Pahu has copy/pasted are twisted misquotes or barefaced fabrications.

Actually you probably noticed that already, but I thought it bore repeating: While I'm sure Pahu repeated those "quotes" believing they were true, it appears they are deliberate lies.

I noticed that too and agree it bears (and bore) repeating. And repeating. Maybe Pahu will finally get it.
P.S. I can crawl again! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inas0XMCdWA
 
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Evolution, Creation and Thermodynamics

The Second Law states: Every system, left to its own devices, always tends to move from order to disorder, ...
Yes & no. "Order" and "disorder" are not thermodynamics states, but rather are subjective interpretations of the thermodynamic state variable known as entropy. It is quite common, even amongst scientists, to use order & disorder, since they are easy to communicate to popular level audiences (i.e., to non-scientists). But this kind of interpretation does not work where precision of science & communication are required. So I direct the readers attention to my own set of webpages: The Definitions of Entropy, The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics & Entropy and the 2nd Law in Open Systems. A valid understanding of the correct physical meaning of entropy is necessary if we are going to make definitive statements about which physical processes do or do not violate the fabled 2nd law of thermodynamics (see, however, Pahu's later definition of entropy recounted below).

Your analogies don't address thermodynamics. The fridge is receiving power from outside. Living organisms are created to digest food, etc.
In what way does this not address thermodynamics? The fridge receives power from the outside, but so do all biologically evolving systems. The fridge has the net effect of moving heat energy from lower temperatures to higher temperatures, in an apparent discord with the 2nd law, even though at every step in the mechanical process heat always flows spontaneously from higher to lower temperatures (never underestimate the ability of clever & talented engineers). The whole process is permitted by the las of physics thanks to the addition of work done on the system by the introduction of energy external to the system. Biologically evolving systems are able to maintain themselves in non-equilibrium thermodynamic states in much the same way, via chemical work done on the system by the introduction of energy external to the system, namely the energy in the chemical bonds in food. Where does any of this contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or any other law of physics?

Platitudes and appeals to authority are not effective. Definitive statements require definitive physics, and if neither Pahu nor Brown can deliver, then there is no scientific argument to be had.

The second law presents an insurmountable problem to the concept of a natural, mechanistic process: (1) by which the physical universe could have formed spontaneously from nothing, ...
The idea that the universe formed spontaneously from nothing exists only in the minds of creationists who, through simple ignorance, fail to properly interpret cosmological science. The idea comes from an over reliance on popular level writings, rather then proper science, the latter being obviously necessary if one is going to claim to be making scientific arguments as opposed to popular level simplifications. The correct interpretation of the big bang singularity is that the initial state of the universe is unknown (and in the realm of classical general relativity, cannot ever be known in any case). Since no "evolutionist" accepts such a principle, it falls into the class of strawman arguments commonly put forth by creationists.

... and (2) by which biological life could have arisen and diversified (also spontaneously) from a non-living, inanimate world. (Both postulates form essential planks in the platform of evolutionary theory in general.)
Of course, as we have already seen, the statement in parentheses is incorrect, as the former postulate does not in fact exist at all outside of the creationist imagination. As for the notion that the origin of life in some way violates the laws of thermodynamics, that is certainly not at all the case.

Pahu, for the sake of understanding, please define "entropy".
A thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
Well, so far so good. Not bad for a popular level explanation, but quite inappropriate to be a scientific argument. See my earlier reference: The Definitions of Entropy. Entropy is what the equations define it to be, and no other answer can be tolerated in any scientific argument. Entropy is not just a conceptual notion, but rather a mathematically defined physical quantity that is subject to observation, measurement and quantitative theoretical investigation.

In other words, the observed process of everything moving from a higher state to a lower state, or running down, like a wound up clock.
But this is a complete failure. The clock runs down, but the clock can be wound up again. The refrigerator has the net effect of moving heat away from the cold and into the hot, exactly opposite to a naive understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That's because the refrigerator, like the clock, can be "wound up" again by having energy injected into the system; in the case of the clock, it is the mechanical winding of the clock, and in the case of the refrigerator it is the mechanical & thermal work of circulating coolant. The origin & maintenance of life is no more philosophically complicated than winding a clock. The intercession of outside work & energy maintains life in a low entropy state in the same manner. Hence, the argument that life, either in origin or maintenance, has no basis in science.
 
I agree that we should always seek reality. That's what science is all about. With NO scientific evidence, why do so many "scientists" embrace evolution? Following are some quotes from noted evolutionists, which will shed light on this subject:

Quote mining isn't evidence. Evidence is evidence and there's plenty of it for evolution.

Spontaneous generation

Not that Pahu will understand, but abiogenesis is not the same as Spontaneous Generation. Spontaneous Generation was fully formed living beings emerging from material that, itself, was previously living. Examples would be maggots from rotten meat, geese from barnacles and mice from grain. This has absolutely no connection to what abiogenesis postulates.
 
I agree that we should always seek reality. That's what science is all about. With NO scientific evidence, why do so many "scientists" embrace evolution?

There is a vast amount of scientific evidence for evolution and none for creationism or gods. You simply refuse to accept this as it conflicts with your opinions.

Aldous Huxley stated the matter succinctly in his article, “Confessions of a Professed Atheist” :

“I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning; consequently, assumed it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find reasons for this assumption....The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics; he is also concerned to prove there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do....For myself, as no doubt for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom” (1966, 3:19).
An example of a distortion by creationists. The quote is 'Report: Perspective on the News' a conservative journal. The "Confessions of a Professed Atheist" is an addition by the editor of that journal. The Huxley quote is part of a five page article by Dennis Helming not by Huxley, who was dead at the time. Interestingly when Huxley wrote that paragraph he wasn't yet an atheist and was arguing against atheism. An excellent example of Did Not Do the Research.

The late Sir Julian Huxley, once the world's leading evolution "expert", and head of the United Nations Educational Scientific Cultural Organization (UNESCO), In answer to the question on the Merv Griffin show: ‘Why do people believe in evolution?” said, “The reason we accepted Darwinism even without proof, is because we didn’t want God to interfere with our sexual mores.”
That is a lie. Either you know it's a lie and use it deliberately or you're just parroting the lies of another liar. It was first fabricated by James Kennedy in his book "Why I Believe" in 1980 and is a distortion of a statement made by Thomas Henry Huxley long before talk shows or UNESCO (introducing a UN agency was deliberate, an attempt to drag in the "godless" UN).
Julian Huxley did speak on evolution and why it was accepted by scientists, including on television but that "quote" is a complete fabrication. Interesting despite the gibe at his "sexual modes" he celebrated his fiftieth wedding anniversary in 1969 however I doubt you'll let mere facts get in the way of your delusions..........

George Wald, another prominent Evolutionist (a Harvard University biochemist and Nobel Laureate), wrote, "When it comes to the Origin of Life there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved one hundred years ago, but that leads us to only one other conclusion, that of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds; therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance!" ("The Origin of Life," Scientific American, 191:48, May 1954).
Again you are parroting someone else's lie, a common problem with those unable to think for themselves. Your "source" couldn't even manage to get the issue correct...............
Here is the correct text from the September 1958 issue:
The great idea emerges originally in the consciousness of the race as a vague intuition; and this is the form it keeps, rude and imposing, in myth, tradition and poetry. This is its core, its enduring aspect. In this form science finds it, clothes it with fact, analyses its content, develops its detail, rejects it, and finds it ever again. In achieving the scientific view, we do not ever wholly lose the intuitive, the mythological. Both have meaning for us, and neither is complete without the other. The Book of Genesis contains still our poem of the Creation; and when God questions Job out of the whirlwind, He questions us.
Let me cite an example. Throughout our history we have entertained two kinds of views of the origin of life: one that life was created supernaturally, the other that it arose "spontaneously" from nonliving material. In the 17th to 19th centuries those opinions provided the ground of a great and bitter controversy. There came a curious point, toward the end of the 18th century, when each side of the controversy was represented by a Roman Catholic priest. The principle opponent of the theory of the spontaneous generation was then the Abbe Lazzaro Spallanzani, an Italian priest; and its principal champion was John Turberville Needham, an English Jesuit.
Since the only alternative to some form of spontaneous generation is a belief in supernatural creation, and since the latter view seems firmly implanted in the Judeo-Christian theology, I wondered for a time how a priest could support the theory of spontaneous generation. Needham tells one plainly. The opening paragraphs of the Book of Genesis can in fact be reconciled with either view. In its first account of Creation, it says not quite that God made living things, but He commanded the earth and waters to produce them. The language used is: "let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life.... Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind." In the second version of creation the language is different and suggests a direct creative act: "And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air...." In both accounts man himself--and woman--are made by God's direct intervention. The myth itself therefore offers justification for either view. Needham took the position that the earth and waters, having once been ordered to bring forth life, remained ever after free to do so; and this is what we mean by spontaneous generation.
This great controversy ended in the mid-19th century with the experiments of Louis Pasteur, which seemed to dispose finally of the possibility of spontaneous generation. For almost a century afterward biologists proudly taught their students this history and the firm conclusion that spontaneous generation had been scientifically refuted and could not possibly occur. Does this mean that they accepted the alternative view, a supernatural creation of life? Not at all. They had no theory of the origin of life, and if pressed were likely to explain that questions involving such unique events as origins and endings have no place in science.
A few years ago, however, this question re-emerged in a new form. Conceding that spontaneous generation doe not occur on earth under present circumstances, it asks how, under circumstances that prevailed earlier upon this planet, spontaneous generation did occur and was the source of the earliest living organisms. Within the past 10 years this has gone from a remote and patchwork argument spun by a few venturesome persons--A. I. Oparin in Russia, J. B. S. Haldane in England--to a favored position, proclaimed with enthusiasm by many biologists.
Have I cited here a good instance of my thesis? I had said that in these great questions one finds two opposed views, each of which is periodically espoused by science. In my example I seem to have presented a supernatural and a naturalistic view, which were indeed opposed to each other, but only one of which was ever defended scientifically. In this case it would seem that science has vacillated, not between two theories, but between one theory and no theory.
That, however, is not the end of the matter. Our present concept of the origin of life leads to the position that, in a universe composed as ours is, life inevitably arises wherever conditions permit. We look upon life as part of the order of nature. It does not emerge immediately with the establishment of that order; long ages must pass before [page 100 | page 101] it appears. Yet given enough time, it is an inevitable consequence of that order. When speaking for myself, I do not tend to make sentences containing the word God; but what do those persons mean who make such sentences? They mean a great many different things; indeed I would be happy to know what they mean much better than I have yet been able to discover. I have asked as opportunity offered, and intend to go on asking. What I have learned is that many educated persons now tend to equate their concept of God with their concept of the order of nature. This is not a new idea; I think it is firmly grounded in the philosophy of Spinoza. When we as scientists say then that life originated inevitably as part of the order of our universe, we are using different words but do not necessary mean a different thing from what some others mean who say that God created life. It is not only in science that great ideas come to encompass their own negation. That is true in religion also; and man's concept of God changes as he changes.
According to their own testimonies, the most prominent evolutionists believed and taught evolution, NOT because of any scientific evidence, but based upon their rejection of God.
As I have shown this is a lie. QED


Look Pahu I know that as a sufferer from religion it hurts to think outside the confines of the limited religious world but do try. There's a whole universe out there full of wonders.
 
The statement that there's no evidence for evolution is incorrect. You have been provided all the evidence you could need. Why not simply give up your incorrect beliefs? It's obvious you are wrong? Where is the value in sticking with an idea that is incorrect?
 
Elizabeth I said:
Which ones and how do those discoveries support Brown's conclusions? In your own words, please.
In my own words: You will have to read Brown's book.
I see, so you didn't understand what you read and cannot in fact express it.


You overlook the fact that God brought all the animals to the ark, loaded them and the people, and shut the door.

Again, you overlook the fact that the flood, ark, saving some people and animals was all set in motion and guided by God. All the details you list and more are covered by His involvement from beginning to end.
Interesting. Your counter-argument to all logical and logistical objections to the Noah's Ark story is to wave your hands and proclaim, "It was all done by magic!"

So you have no evidence. I believe this conversation is over, if there was ever a conversation to begin with, rather than your desire to preach the gospel to the heathen. Yawn. Please go away now.
 
Dancing David, you ought to take a look further up the page, where people have pointed out where the quotes Pahu has copy/pasted are twisted misquotes or barefaced fabrications.

Actually you probably noticed that already, but I thought it bore repeating: While I'm sure Pahu repeated those "quotes" believing they were true, it appears they are deliberate lies.

Well if you mean the Noah quotes I think "Rabbinical interpretation to make sense of a decoherent verse' is more likely, as in MidrashWP.
 
No, I quoted you and I was responding to your statement. I was a bit harsh, and it certainly wasn't directed at you (ie, I'm not telling YOU I don't care about the bible, I'm telling Pahu), but the point is, in my mind, valid: Even if there were Biblical confirmation for everything Pahu said none of it would constitute evidence without proof that the Bible was a valid source.

The fact that there aren't any is just icing on the cake. :D

No non no, you can say what you want just be sure they are attributed.

This is what your post shows

Dinwar said:
And what verses support that?
Frankly, I don't care. All that does is push the question back one step (ie, what evidence is there that the Bible is valid in the first place?).

Do you have any objective evidence for any of this? Right now, given that you've already been reduced to "goddidit", I'd say the answer is "No".

With NO scientific evidence, why do so many "scientists" embrace evolution?
~sigh~ Because there IS evidence. See the thread in the Sketoid forum here about evolution for page after page after page of it.

There are quotes with no attribution, use the quote button and the quote mark button for multple quotes.
 
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No non no, you can say what you want just be sure they are attributed.

This is what your post shows



There are quotes with no attribution, use the quote button and the quote mark button for multple quotes.
Ah. Sorry about that. I'm in a bad habbit of just hitting "Reply" and using the quote tool. :o
 
No non no, you can say what you want just be sure they are attributed.

This is what your post shows



There are quotes with no attribution, use the quote button and the quote mark button for multple quotes.

Quote mining isn't evidence. Evidence is evidence and there's plenty of it for evolution.



Not that Pahu will understand, but abiogenesis is not the same as Spontaneous Generation. Spontaneous Generation was fully formed living beings emerging from material that, itself, was previously living. Examples would be maggots from rotten meat, geese from barnacles and mice from grain. This has absolutely no connection to what abiogenesis postulates.

Ah. Sorry about that. I'm in a bad habbit of just hitting "Reply" and using the quote tool. :o

URS used just for demonstration, if you click on the quotation mark at the bottom right next to the "QUOTE" button, you can copy multiple quotes when you select QUOTE, so I checked the two upper posts with teh quotation mar and then quoted your last post.

:)
 
The statement that there's no evidence for evolution is incorrect. You have been provided all the evidence you could need. Why not simply give up your incorrect beliefs? It's obvious you are wrong? Where is the value in sticking with an idea that is incorrect?
His belief, like must belief in gods, is irrational and therefore not easily cured by reason. It is more like an emotional need to believe in something because he cannot cope with the reality of humanity without and intelligent, purposeful creator.
 
Ok then Pahu, tell you what. Why don't you go find a fossilized pre Cambrian bunny rabbit and get back to us. Your idea (note I did not say theory) predicts that there should be modern animals in the pre Cambrian era. Why don't you go get one and then get back to us.
 
But this is a complete failure. The clock runs down, but the clock can be wound up again. The refrigerator has the net effect of moving heat away from the cold and into the hot, exactly opposite to a naive understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That's because the refrigerator, like the clock, can be "wound up" again by having energy injected into the system; in the case of the clock, it is the mechanical winding of the clock, and in the case of the refrigerator it is the mechanical & thermal work of circulating coolant. The origin & maintenance of life is no more philosophically complicated than winding a clock. The intercession of outside work & energy maintains life in a low entropy state in the same manner. Hence, the argument that life, either in origin or maintenance, has no basis in science.

Who keeps that clock wound up?
 
Quote mining isn't evidence. Evidence is evidence and there's plenty of it for evolution.

What evidence proves evolution to be true?

Not that Pahu will understand, but abiogenesis is not the same as Spontaneous Generation. Spontaneous Generation was fully formed living beings emerging from material that, itself, was previously living. Examples would be maggots from rotten meat, geese from barnacles and mice from grain. This has absolutely no connection to what abiogenesis postulates.

Pasteur demonstrated that all life comes from pre-existing life of the same kind and never comes from non-living matter. Doesn't that also apply to an alleged lifeless earth?
 
Pasteur demonstrated that all life comes from pre-existing life of the same kind and never comes from non-living matter. Doesn't that also apply to an alleged lifeless earth?
No, our experiments and laws are limited to the testing we apply to them.

You seem to have this idea that the universe is bound to obey any statement that we humans have labeled a law. Peculiar.
 
What evidence proves evolution to be true?
Well, there is just a ton of it.

But, let's start simply.

Emergence of antibiotic resistant bacteria is a firm demonstration that evolution through mutation and natural selection is an observable phenomenon.


Pasteur demonstrated that all life comes from pre-existing life of the same kind and never comes from non-living matter. Doesn't that also apply to an alleged lifeless earth?
What is life?

Do you consider viruses or prions to be alive?
 
There is a vast amount of scientific evidence for evolution and none for creationism or gods. You simply refuse to accept this as it conflicts with your opinions.

Where is that vast amount of scientific evidence for evolution?

Look Pahu I know that as a sufferer from religion it hurts to think outside the confines of the limited religious world but do try. There's a whole universe out there full of wonders.

True. God's creation is truly wonderful, isn't it?
 

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